HD dying or dead?

  • Thread starter Thread starter jinxy
  • Start date Start date
J

jinxy

Hello , I am tring to revive a P3 running XP home. The hd in question
is a Maxtor Diamond Plus 30gb. The pc posts and gives me the single
beep and starts to load windows , but keeps going back to a screen
telling me that a recent hardware or software failure your has
occured. I am given the options of starting windows normally or safe
mode and with or without network support. I have tried both the normal
and safe modes with the same results. The pc belongs to a kid down the
street, his folks are separated and his mom cannot afford a repair
shop fees. This scenario has probably been asked quite a few times I
am guessing, but please bare with me and help me fix this problem.
Thank you in advance for your time and efforts.
-J
 
... beep and starts to load windows , but keeps going back to a screen
telling me that a recent hardware or software failure your has
occured. I am given the options of starting windows normally or safe
mode and with or without network support. I have tried both the normal
and safe modes with the same results. ,,,,

The first thing I would try is booting off Windows CD and enter Recovery
Console. Run chkdsk (or scandisk?) to see if fixes problem. There are also
other utilities that may help. type help in console for list of commands.
fixboot or fixmbr may help. If that does not help, do a repair install.
http://www.michaelstevenstech.com/XPrepairinstall.htm
 
jinxy said:
Hello , I am tring to revive a P3 running XP home. The hd in question
is a Maxtor Diamond Plus 30gb. The pc posts and gives me the single
beep and starts to load windows , but keeps going back to a screen
telling me that a recent hardware or software failure your has
occured. I am given the options of starting windows normally or safe
mode and with or without network support. I have tried both the normal
and safe modes with the same results. The pc belongs to a kid down the
street, his folks are separated and his mom cannot afford a repair
shop fees. This scenario has probably been asked quite a few times I
am guessing, but please bare with me and help me fix this problem.
Thank you in advance for your time and efforts.
-J

One of the best ways to test if a hard drive is working properly is to
install it as a slave drive on a working computer. If it works as a slave
drive, then while still a slave drive run a full virus scan on it. The
failure to boot on the original PC could be a corrupt XP operating system,
possibly due to a virus.
 
jinxy said:
Hello , I am tring to revive a P3 running XP home. The hd in question
is a Maxtor Diamond Plus 30gb. The pc posts and gives me the single
beep and starts to load windows , but keeps going back to a screen
telling me that a recent hardware or software failure your has
occured. I am given the options of starting windows normally or safe
mode and with or without network support. I have tried both the normal
and safe modes with the same results. The pc belongs to a kid down the
street, his folks are separated and his mom cannot afford a repair
shop fees. This scenario has probably been asked quite a few times I
am guessing, but please bare with me and help me fix this problem.
Thank you in advance for your time and efforts.
-J

Tests you can try:

1) Go to the Seagate web site, and download a hard drive diagnostic
program for a Maxtor drive (Seagate bought Maxtor). See if the
drive passes or not. If the drive needs to be replaced, you can
install the "clip" jumper on a higher capacity hard drive, to
reduce its shown capacity to 32GB. That is used in cases where the
machine doesn't like to see a larger drive (a BIOS limitation, not
always documented anywhere).

2) A simple test to run, would be to boot a Ubuntu (ubuntu.com) or
Knoppix (knopper.net) Linux LiveCD. Those don't need a hard drive
and also don't install any software unless you want them to. If
booting an alternate OS works, that tells you the OS on the
original disk is having a problem. Those distros are a 700MB
download from the respective web sites. Before doing this though,
check the minimum memory required to run them, as your system
may not have enough memory present to run them. I use those CDs
for testing here.

3) Check for "bad capacitors". The capacitors are the aluminum
cylinders with plastic sleeves on them. Usually near the CPU
slot or socket. The tops of the cylinders, should be perfectly
flat. If they are bulging, that means they are going bad.
Also, check near the base of the capacitor, where it enters
the motherboard PCB. If you see a brown stain, where some
liquid has dried, that is escaped electrolyte. That is also
a sign the capacitor is failed. Within a few weeks of the
capacitor going bad, the strain from the bad capacitor, can
cause other elements of the switching power circuit to fail.
Bad capacitors can be replaced with careful soldering iron
work. Sites like badcaps.net sell replacements, and it may
be easier to get them there, than to try to find the right
type at a big electronics company. In looking at the component
catalog of one big supplier, I could find no desirable types
listed, only crap.

4) The power supply could be failing to deliver enough power,
just as the desktop is about to appear. Measuring the
voltages with a multimeter, might show a weakness.
(Voltages are 3.3V, 5V, 12V, -5V, -12V, +5VSB).
Swapping a replacement supply into the system, for testing,
is another alternative. Make sure, before you do it, that a
standard ATX supply is pin compatible, with the computer in
question. There were some Dells, where that wasn't the case.
Hopefully, the computer does not rely on -5V, as many new
power supplies no longer have that rail present (missing pin).

HTH,
Paul
 
Tests you can try:

1) Go to the Seagate web site, and download a hard drive diagnostic
program for a Maxtor drive (Seagate bought Maxtor). See if the
drive passes or not. If the drive needs to be replaced, you can
install the "clip" jumper on a higher capacity hard drive, to
reduce its shown capacity to 32GB. That is used in cases where the
machine doesn't like to see a larger drive (a BIOS limitation, not
always documented anywhere).

What's a clip jumper?
2) A simple test to run, would be to boot a Ubuntu (ubuntu.com) or
Knoppix (knopper.net) Linux LiveCD. Those don't need a hard drive
and also don't install any software unless you want them to. If
booting an alternate OS works, that tells you the OS on the
original disk is having a problem. Those distros are a 700MB
download from the respective web sites. Before doing this though,
check the minimum memory required to run them, as your system
may not have enough memory present to run them. I use those CDs
for testing here.

This is a good idea I tried on a laptop that had problems similar to
the one jinxy describes.
3) Check for "bad capacitors". The capacitors are the aluminum
cylinders with plastic sleeves on them. Usually near the CPU
slot or socket. The tops of the cylinders, should be perfectly
flat. If they are bulging, that means they are going bad.
Also, check near the base of the capacitor, where it enters
the motherboard PCB. If you see a brown stain, where some
liquid has dried, that is escaped electrolyte. That is also
a sign the capacitor is failed. Within a few weeks of the
capacitor going bad, the strain from the bad capacitor, can
cause other elements of the switching power circuit to fail.
Bad capacitors can be replaced with careful soldering iron
work. Sites like badcaps.net sell replacements, and it may
be easier to get them there, than to try to find the right
type at a big electronics company. In looking at the component
catalog of one big supplier, I could find no desirable types
listed, only crap.

I'm assuming you listed possible fixes maybe in order of increasing
difficulty? When my laptop "broke" and everyone was suggesting a
problem with the DC jack, I took the thing apart and looked at where
exactly I was supposed to solder. I have experience soldering, but I
didn't have the finesse or whatever that would have been needed to
control the solder had the DC solder been the "broke" part (it
wasn't).
4) The power supply could be failing to deliver enough power,
just as the desktop is about to appear. Measuring the
voltages with a multimeter, might show a weakness.
(Voltages are 3.3V, 5V, 12V, -5V, -12V, +5VSB).
Swapping a replacement supply into the system, for testing,
is another alternative. Make sure, before you do it, that a
standard ATX supply is pin compatible, with the computer in
question. There were some Dells, where that wasn't the case.
Hopefully, the computer does not rely on -5V, as many new
power supplies no longer have that rail present (missing pin).

You know an awful lot, so if you could comment on how this could
happen (a failure of the power supply to deliver enough power) could
happen on a laptop, I'd like to know. Is it always the AC adapter/
power cord that are at fault? Aside from a visual inspection of the
motherboard, how do you know which is failing and more importantly
when to give up.
 
What's a clip jumper?

IDE drives have jumpers on the back. Each company has their own jumper
block definition. One of the jumpers shown in this example web page,
shows that the capacity of the drive can be limited to 32GB. That
may be necessary when using a new disk on an old computer, if the old
computer BIOS cannot handle large disks properly. You install the
jumper and try again.

http://seagate.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/seagate.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=3050

You know an awful lot, so if you could comment on how this could
happen (a failure of the power supply to deliver enough power) could
happen on a laptop, I'd like to know. Is it always the AC adapter/
power cord that are at fault? Aside from a visual inspection of the
motherboard, how do you know which is failing and more importantly
when to give up.

A laptop uses a different powering scheme, than a desktop computer.
I assumed from the description, that Jinxy's computer is a desktop
machine.

A laptop has an external adapter. It might deliver at 12V to
17V DC, somewhere in that region (varies with the design of the
laptop, number of cells in battery etc). Inside the laptop, the
raw voltage is used to do two things. It charges the battery.
It can also deliver power to the laptop (so you can charge
the battery and work at the same time).

Inside the laptop, is more power conversion circuits. They convert
the 12V to 17V, into much lower voltages. Maybe 5V (hard drive),
3.3V (logic), the voltage for Vcore (CPU), the voltage for Northbridge,
the voltage for memory, and so on. In many ways, the function is similar
to what is inside the ATX power supply, only the circuits are more
miniaturized.

There are not a lot of technical references on laptops and their
design, so I haven't learned much about them. A broken jack
is conceptually easy to understand, as is the consequences.
(Battery won't charge, computer won't run.) I don't know to
what extent and how frequently, other portions of the power
conversion in the laptop fail. If the problem was "bad
capacitors", of which there were millions of them a few years
ago, you might see some bulging or leaking caps inside the
laptop. Or some burned MOSFETs or toriodal coils. Even when
I can find pictures of the motherboard, I cannot always
guess at where the power functions are or what they should
look like.

Hell, I cannot even repair my stereo, which is broken right
now :-)

You can sometimes find pictures of laptops that have been
disassembled. This one, for example, looks like some of the
power conversion functions are around the gold colored thing.
The four capacitors next to the CPU socket, look like they
might be polymer (solid) caps, and those should not leak
as there is no liquid electrolyte. I cannot really identify
enough of it though, to make sense of it all.

http://www.irisvista.com/tech/laptops/ToshibaA65/disassembly/big/Toshiba_A65_25.jpg

Paul
 
A laptop has an external adapter. It might deliver at 12V to
17V DC, somewhere in that region (varies with the design of the
laptop, number of cells in battery etc). Inside the laptop, the
raw voltage is used to do two things. It charges the battery.
It can also deliver power to the laptop (so you can charge
the battery and work at the same time).

Would you hazard a guess as to whether a dead battery in a laptop can
throw the entire power scheme off? I'm still smarting over the loss
of this dead machine, as I opted for a generic power cord from one of
the big computer chains rather than a proprietary IBM. Three months
after I bought the generic cord, the laptop started intermittent
freezes--depending on the way the power cord was stretched out. (This
is supposedly a tip-off that the DC adapter is broken--the physical
placement of the power cord--i.e., to the left of a table/desk/lap; to
the right.)

Anyway, the freezes got more and more severe until it died. The
problem wasn't the HD, the memory, or maybe even the processor (M)
because up until the bitter end, whenever the machine booted
successfully, all diagnostics showed these systems were "normal"--
diagnostics in Windows as well as in the BIOS.

I want to avoid repeating whatever I may have done wrong with this
heavily-used, three-and-a-half year old machine, 'cause now I'm making
payments on a new one.
Inside the laptop, is more power conversion circuits. They convert
the 12V to 17V, into much lower voltages. Maybe 5V (hard drive),
3.3V (logic), the voltage for Vcore (CPU), the voltage for Northbridge,
the voltage for memory, and so on. In many ways, the function is similar
to what is inside the ATX power supply, only the circuits are more
miniaturized.

I did not know that different parts of a laptop (PC, too?) use
different voltages. Maybe I'm an idiot, but I just never thought of
this. I also could never figure out where/how to use a voltage tester
on the laptop either, though, so my bad.
If the problem was "bad capacitors", of which there were millions of them
a few years ago, you might see some bulging or leaking caps inside the
laptop.

Exactly. Laptops probably cost $25 max to manufacture, are marked up
more than anything ever was marked up in human history, and are unfix-
able and therefore ridiculous...without extended warranties...which of
course makes the price mark-up exponentially worse.

Thanks for this link.
 
Would you hazard a guess as to whether a dead battery in a laptop can
throw the entire power scheme off? I'm still smarting over the loss
of this dead machine, as I opted for a generic power cord from one of
the big computer chains rather than a proprietary IBM. Three months
after I bought the generic cord, the laptop started intermittent
freezes--depending on the way the power cord was stretched out. (This
is supposedly a tip-off that the DC adapter is broken--the physical
placement of the power cord--i.e., to the left of a table/desk/lap; to
the right.)

Anyway, the freezes got more and more severe until it died. The
problem wasn't the HD, the memory, or maybe even the processor (M)
because up until the bitter end, whenever the machine booted
successfully, all diagnostics showed these systems were "normal"--
diagnostics in Windows as well as in the BIOS.

I want to avoid repeating whatever I may have done wrong with this
heavily-used, three-and-a-half year old machine, 'cause now I'm making
payments on a new one.


I did not know that different parts of a laptop (PC, too?) use
different voltages. Maybe I'm an idiot, but I just never thought of
this. I also could never figure out where/how to use a voltage tester
on the laptop either, though, so my bad.


Exactly. Laptops probably cost $25 max to manufacture, are marked up
more than anything ever was marked up in human history, and are unfix-
able and therefore ridiculous...without extended warranties...which of
course makes the price mark-up exponentially worse.


Thanks for this link.

No, I think the parts cost in there is significant. The processor prices
you can get estimates from the Intel or AMD pricelist. (A T7500 is $241.)
The chipset could be $50. For a unit with a separate GPU, it might also
contribute a similar price. So you cannot construct everything in there
for $25.

With regard to the battery and adapter question, I don't know how
those are typically hooked up. The only documentation I could find
on laptop power distribution, was for the OLPC, and while it is
a bit illuminating, the design would not be similar to more
high performance laptops, ones that have much higher power
consumption. You can look at the diagram, but I wouldn't extrapolate
from this, to your problem. DC power from the adapter or whatever,
would come in on the upper left of the diagram. There are various
voltages shown for the integrated circuits listed near the bottom
of the diagram. So the OLPC uses multiple voltages inside the
unit. Notice that the Southbridge is powered by three different
voltages. Some Ethernet chips use two voltages (core and I/O).

http://wiki.laptop.org/images/4/4c/Tinderbox_C2.pdf

Paul
 
No, I think the parts cost in there is significant. The processor prices
you can get estimates from the Intel or AMD pricelist. (A T7500 is $241.)
The chipset could be $50. For a unit with a separate GPU, it might also
contribute a similar price. So you cannot construct everything in there
for $25.

With regard to the battery and adapter question, I don't know how
those are typically hooked up. The only documentation I could find
on laptop power distribution, was for the OLPC, and while it is
a bit illuminating, the design would not be similar to more
high performance laptops, ones that have much higher power
consumption. You can look at the diagram, but I wouldn't extrapolate
from this, to your problem. DC power from the adapter or whatever,
would come in on the upper left of the diagram. There are various
voltages shown for the integrated circuits listed near the bottom
of the diagram. So the OLPC uses multiple voltages inside the
unit. Notice that the Southbridge is powered by three different
voltages. Some Ethernet chips use two voltages (core and I/O).

http://wiki.laptop.org/images/4/4c/Tinderbox_C2.pdf

    Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have tried those suggestions with no luck. I went to Seagate and
downloaded the diag. software and was told that there are 2 errors on
the drive that are unrecoverable. I guess that means that the kid is
out of luck, and we will have to find him a new drive. Thanks again
for your inputs-J
 
I have tried those suggestions with no luck. I went to Seagate and
downloaded the diag. software and was told that there are 2 errors on
the drive that are unrecoverable. I guess that means that the kid is
out of luck, and we will have to find him a new drive.

Depends on what those errors are (or why you include details so that
replies from the better informed will occur). For example, some
sectors can be defective and unrecoverable. That does not mean the
drive is completely bad. That just means those two data sectors are
never used again.
 
  Depends on what those errors are (or why you include details so that
replies from the better informed will occur).  For example, some
sectors can be defective and unrecoverable.  That does not mean the
drive is completely bad.  That just means those two data sectors are
never used again.

The 2 errors in question were not numbered or elaborated on. It simply
said " 2 errors have been detected that are unrecoverable" . If some
data sectors are bad and never used again, how do you determine the
size of these damaged sectors? Could this type of message also pertain
to physical damage? I am going to the local dump tomorrow to see if I
can find a decent sized drive in the electronics shed. They will let
you dig around for parts, and here is the best part... no charge. Any
more ideas as to this drives failure are more than welcomed.
-J
 
Depends on what those errors are (or why you include details so that
replies from the better informed will occur). For example, some
sectors can be defective and unrecoverable. That does not mean the
drive is completely bad. That just means those two data sectors are
never used again.
The 2 errors in question were not numbered or elaborated on. It simply
said " 2 errors have been detected that are unrecoverable" . If some
data sectors are bad and never used again, how do you determine the
size of these damaged sectors? Could this type of message also pertain
to physical damage? I am going to the local dump tomorrow to see if I
can find a decent sized drive in the electronics shed. They will let
you dig around for parts, and here is the best part... no charge. Any
more ideas as to this drives failure are more than welcomed.
-J

If only some sectors are bad the drive might still be usable. Do a full
format of the drive and see what happens.
 
If only some sectors are bad the drive might still be usable. Do a full
format of the drive and see what happens.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes a full format may be a solution, but as you know you only get so
many installs with XP, why would I use one on a drive that might be
toast? If I run the Magicaljelly bean software, will it tell how many
times the product key has been used? Remember this is not my system
and I don't know if this is even a valid registered OS as they have no
disk.
-J
 
Yes a full format may be a solution, but as you know you only get so
many installs with XP, why would I use one on a drive that might be
toast?

The drive is not toast according to your exact quote from the
diagnostic. Notice that the replies are more succinct when you post
what is reported by the diagnostic rather than posting your
interpretation.

A drive is chock full of thousand of sectors. In the earlier days,
it was normal to sometimes have a new drive with maybe one sector
defective.

Software all but randomly selects an available sector and dumps data
there. Your message said two sectors were found bad AND data in those
sectors could not be recovered. Booting the OS (from floppy or CD-
Rom) and executing disk drive diagnostics (ie SCANDISK) would have
marked off those two sectors (so that data is never put there again),
identifies any defective files (so that you can restore just those
defective files), and / or tries to recover any lost data in those
defective sectors. Best is to restore files that may have been
recovered from a defective sector.

Move on. Later run diagnostics to learn if other sectors go bad. A
drive with hardware failures will slowly find more sectors going
defective. Normal is for some sectors to go bad only because the
magnetic material on disk platter was marginal in that spot during
manufacturing. You don't have a defective drive according to those
diagnostics. You only had a two sectors go bad - now that the actual
message was posted rather than an interpretation.
 
  The drive is not toast according to your exact quote from the
diagnostic.  Notice that the replies are more succinct when you post
what is reported by the diagnostic rather than posting your
interpretation.

  A drive is chock full of thousand of sectors.  In the earlier days,
it was normal to sometimes have a new drive with maybe one sector
defective.

  Software all but randomly selects an available sector and dumps data
there.  Your message said two sectors were found bad AND data in those
sectors could not be recovered.  Booting the OS (from floppy or CD-
Rom) and executing disk drive diagnostics (ie SCANDISK) would have
marked off those two sectors (so that data is never put there again),
identifies any defective files (so that you can restore just those
defective files), and / or tries to recover any lost data in those
defective sectors.  Best is to restore files that may have been
recovered from a defective sector.

  Move on.  Later run diagnostics to learn if other sectors go bad.  A
drive with hardware failures will slowly find more sectors going
defective.  Normal is for some sectors to go bad only because the
magnetic material on disk platter was marginal in that spot during
manufacturing.  You don't have a defective drive according to those
diagnostics.  You only had a two sectors go bad - now that the actual
message was posted rather than an interpretation.

Thanks Tom, for your interest, I attempted to reformat and reinstall
xp. Windows was unable to format the drive do to possible drive
damage. We have gotten a hold of another drive and are at the present
installing windows. As I am new to this and eager to learn, I am
always willing to listen, but in the future please check you ego at
the door and drop any sarcastic remarks you feel you have to add.
Thank you again.
-J
 
As I am new to this and eager to learn, I am always willing to
listen, but in the future please check you ego at the door and
drop any sarcastic remarks you feel you have to add.

Appreciate that post was entirely 100% technical fact only about the
computer and about 'following the evidence. You read into it your
emotions; something that did not exist in that post. An important
point was about quoting the error message without speculation, solving
the problem without reformatting, and avoiding a reloading of the OS -
which you wanted to avoid.

That is now moot. Hopefully the new drive will work. But facts
obtained from the diagnostic imply the old drive was still
functional. Periodically review system (event) logs which is where a
problem is detected and recorded (before a problem becomes severe
enough to actually cause problems) - only to confirm the problem is
not slowly reoccurring in the next month with a new drive.

Just a blunt, honest, technical reply with no regard for silly
emotions. You and I were neither relevant nor discussed. This and
that post are 100% only and bluntly about the computer. That
diagnostic said the old drive should have been functional and may have
been recoverable without reloading the OS or losing existing data.
Conclusion based on what the diagnostic actually said, and explained
in a discussion about sectors.
 
Back
Top