*Groan* here I go again.

[John Corliss]

Warning: the following post contains graphic descriptions of unpleasant
hardware dissections performed by a five thumbed biker.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Back in March, I posted a message to this group (Message-ID:
<[email protected]>) regarding Maxtor hard drives and
how my own experience with one of their Diamondmax Plus ATA 100/60 GB
hard drives had soured me on the company. I loathed the idea of
returning the drive to Maxtor with all of my data on it, so I decided to
simply purchase another hard drive from somebody else.

First though, I decided to take advantage of MY PROPERTY, the broken
hard drive, in order to learn a little more about its physical makeup. I
bought the necessary special screwdriver head and used it to take the
unit apart. I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination, so when I
got inside I was surprised to see that there was only *one* little
platter in that 60 gb hard drive! I've always thought that hard drives
have more than one platter.

I also noticed that the read head arms (or whatever they're called) were
unable to move on their pivot very well. When I *lightly* backed off the
pivot screw (accessible from under a patch on the cover which, if peeled
back or removed, voids the warranty of every drive I've ever examined),
the read head arm once again was able to move freely.

Note that I did not try adjusting that screw until after the drive had
completely failed, and so I never was able to determine if such an
adjustment would allow one to again be able to access data. Also, if it
were possible to make this work, it's most likely a very sensitive
adjustment. Excessive backing off of the screw would almost undoubtedly
be as bad as having it too tight. On the other hand, it's nice to know
about this screw for whatever reason. One has to wonder why it's
accessible from the outside; undoubtedly it's for factory adjustment.

Having satisfied my curiosity for the most part, now it was time to make
sure that nobody would ever be able to read anything from that disk. I
removed the platter from the drive and took my Buck knife to the s.o.b.,
scratching the hell out of both sides. Then I bent the thing in half
(they don't "snap" like a CD.) Finally, into the garbage it went.. to
spend eternity at the bottom of some garbage dump, enriching the
environment with whatever toxic oozements it could provide for unlucky
future generations of humans. And I didn't simply place the rest of the
drive into the garbage can, I THREW IT AS HARD AS I COULD!!! It made me
feel better to do this because it really pisses me off bad when a
f**king hard drive fails.

After a lot of research and asking around, I finally decided on a
Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 Plus PATA 8MB as the replacement. I did this
because I'd heard that Seagate drives are the most reliable on the
market, that they perform well and are very quiet. Installation of the
drive went smoothly and I was very happy with the way it ran.

Now however, after a mere 8 months of use, this new drive has ALSO
started with the dreaded "click... click... click... click..." and a
need for multiple restarts in order to access the OS. The drive is not
long for this world. Yes, I have all of my data backed up on another
physical hard drive, but the short duration of the Seagate is a very
serious disappointment to me.

So what am I going to do now with this hard drive after it craps out? I
can surely send it back to Seagate and get a replacement, but is it
worth it? Their website clearly states that the replacement will be
another returned unit which has been "repaird and then low level
formatted. Great. Just what I want. Somebody else's used crap. And on
that note, what about all of my data? Do I really want to send it to an
unknown destination? REALLY??? Thoughts of my Buck knife and the special
screwdriver head come instantly to mind again. Or maybe it's time to see
if that pivot head adjustment can work?

I bought the drive from Newegg, who I still consider to be a great
company, but I believe that given the short life of the drive, the
remote possibility exists that Seagate may be providing them with
"remanufactured" (i.e. returned units that have been *examined and
determined to be non-defective*.) This is the only way I can account for
the short life of this drive.

I can think of nothing which I'm doing that will account for the short
lifespan of my hard drives, other than using them in a work setting
(running most of the day, most days.) I do nothing that is hard drive
intensive, like using them to play movies from or frequently "wiping"
deleted space. I religiously defrag them on a regular basis, and
whenever possible shut down my computer properly by using the Windows
"Shut Down..." item on the start menu.

However, and as I'm sure you are well aware, all version of Microsoft
Windows are so unstable that the occasional power button method ("cold
reboot") of turning off a system is unavoidable. When this occurs, I
always wait at least seven seconds before restarting the computer.
Regardless, I am getting sick and tired of having to replace hard drives.

My niece is still using my old Quantex Pentium 90 for email and word
processing. Its Western Digital 730 mb hard drive (note: it has a *life
time* warranty) is still working like the day I purchased the system.
Although I wouldn't consider my experiences and observations to be
adequate empirical basis for doing so, I can only theorize that hard
drive manufacturers have intentionally lowered the reliability of newer
hard drives in order to stimulate the market and increase sales (AKA
"planned obsolescence".) They have though, also destroyed their
credibility and my guess is that it won't be long before some new
industry and companies come up with an alternative method of storage
that requires no moving parts.

And so the ongoing struggle against entropy in the universe continues....

 

[philo]

And so the ongoing struggle against entropy in the universe continues....

best you can do is break even!

 

[Skeleton Man]

Back in March, I posted a message to this group (Message-ID:

<[email protected]>) regarding Maxtor hard drives and
how my own experience with one of their Diamondmax Plus ATA 100/60 GB
hard drives had soured me on the company. I loathed the idea of
returning the drive to Maxtor with all of my data on it, so I decided to
simply purchase another hard drive from somebody else.

I would've booted from another drive and tried a secure wipe of the failing
one.. then when the sent the replacement I would've sold it as refurbished on
ebay, and bought a new one (preferably Western Digital)...

After a lot of research and asking around, I finally decided on a
Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 Plus PATA 8MB as the replacement. I did this
because I'd heard that Seagate drives are the most reliable on the
market, that they perform well and are very quiet. Installation of the
drive went smoothly and I was very happy with the way it ran.

I along with many in the IT field have come to know of Seagate as SeaSlug..
I've never had major issues besides a bad sector or two, but they've not offered
the best performance.

Now however, after a mere 8 months of use, this new drive has ALSO
started with the dreaded "click... click... click... click..." and a
need for multiple restarts in order to access the OS. The drive is not
long for this world. Yes, I have all of my data backed up on another
physical hard drive, but the short duration of the Seagate is a very
serious disappointment to me.

Secure wipe the drive, ship it back, sell the replacement and buy a Western
Digital.. I've never had a problem with WD, I've been running 80GB 7200RPM and
200GB 7200RPM drives in my PC trouble free for nearly 2 years now (running
24/7).. I paid well over $100 for the 80GB and close to $200 at the time for the
200GB, but it was worth the investment.. these days you could pick up an 80GB
on ebay for ~$50 or less..

Regards,
Chris

 

[kony]

On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 06:51:02 -0700, John Corliss

I was surprised to see that there was only *one* little
platter in that 60 gb hard drive! I've always thought that hard drives
have more than one platter.

At any point in time, a manufacturer is using platters with
"X" amount of capacity per. Different models might have
different platters, or you might sometimes buy old stock
using the last, lower density, but it's still a similar
situation. How many platters are used depends on total
capacity divided by # of platters to attain that capacity.
IIRC, everyone is now up to 120GB/platter so again, if you
bought anything over 120GB, you'd get more than one platter
(on typical low-end drives, others like a WD Raptor or SCSI
still use lower density platters often).

I also noticed that the read head arms (or whatever they're called) were
unable to move on their pivot very well. When I *lightly* backed off the
pivot screw (accessible from under a patch on the cover which, if peeled
back or removed, voids the warranty of every drive I've ever examined),
the read head arm once again was able to move freely.

MIght be a sign that the bearings are deformed, and while
loosening the screw might make it move easier, that may just
allow more play in it's movement too. Obviously it had to
be loose enough to move when new so it may be beside the
point that loosening the screw frees it up.

Having satisfied my curiosity for the most part, now it was time to make
sure that nobody would ever be able to read anything from that disk.

Did you feel you're being watched and someone is so
desperate to get it that they're going to (try to) repair
the mechanics of the drive to get it working again?

Now however, after a mere 8 months of use, this new drive has ALSO
started with the dreaded "click... click... click... click..." and a
need for multiple restarts in order to access the OS. The drive is not
long for this world. Yes, I have all of my data backed up on another
physical hard drive, but the short duration of the Seagate is a very
serious disappointment to me.

It's possible you just got a dud, but I would wonder about
your cooling and power supply... since this is the 2nd in
such a short interval to fail.

So what am I going to do now with this hard drive after it craps out? I
can surely send it back to Seagate and get a replacement, but is it
worth it?

Sure, it's no big deal and you couldn't already had it sent
in.

Their website clearly states that the replacement will be
another returned unit which has been "repaird and then low level
formatted. Great. Just what I want. Somebody else's used crap. And on
that note, what about all of my data? Do I really want to send it to an
unknown destination? REALLY??? Thoughts of my Buck knife and the special
screwdriver head come instantly to mind again. Or maybe it's time to see
if that pivot head adjustment can work?

Maybe you just need to do what everyone else does and either
throw it away or get the RMA replacement. You're making
things harder than they are.

I bought the drive from Newegg, who I still consider to be a great
company, but I believe that given the short life of the drive, the
remote possibility exists that Seagate may be providing them with
"remanufactured" (i.e. returned units that have been *examined and
determined to be non-defective*.) This is the only way I can account for
the short life of this drive.

No, Newegg does not sell used drives as new. If you bought
a "refurbished" drive from newegg, then that becomes
possible.

I can think of nothing which I'm doing that will account for the short
lifespan of my hard drives, other than using them in a work setting
(running most of the day, most days.) I do nothing that is hard drive
intensive, like using them to play movies from or frequently "wiping"
deleted space. I religiously defrag them on a regular basis, and
whenever possible shut down my computer properly by using the Windows
"Shut Down..." item on the start menu.

Based on your light usage, you do not need to religiously
defrag them, and indeed that IS an intensive use... moreso
than most anything as the drive is continually writing as
fast as it can.

However, and as I'm sure you are well aware, all version of Microsoft
Windows are so unstable that the occasional power button method ("cold
reboot") of turning off a system is unavoidable. When this occurs, I
always wait at least seven seconds before restarting the computer.
Regardless, I am getting sick and tired of having to replace hard drives.

If Windows is crashing on you that often, you may have viri,
buggy applications, or buggy drivers. Try replacing those.
Most Win2k or XP users are not frequently power cycling
their systems for crash-related reasons unless above issues
are at play.

 

[John Corliss]

best you can do is break even!

LOL "There's no free lunch."

 

[John Corliss]

John Corliss wrote:



At any point in time, a manufacturer is using platters with
"X" amount of capacity per. Different models might have
different platters, or you might sometimes buy old stock
using the last, lower density, but it's still a similar
situation. How many platters are used depends on total
capacity divided by # of platters to attain that capacity.
IIRC, everyone is now up to 120GB/platter so again, if you
bought anything over 120GB, you'd get more than one platter
(on typical low-end drives, others like a WD Raptor or SCSI
still use lower density platters often).

Thanks for that clarification. And as I said, I'm no expert. 80)>

MIght be a sign that the bearings are deformed,

Eh.... my observation was that the read head pivot arm didn't *use* a
bearing. It looked a lot to me like it was simply a bushing.

and while
loosening the screw might make it move easier, that may just
allow more play in it's movement too.

I was thinking that exact thing, by which I mean not only might it free
up rotational movement, but also up and down movement of the read
heads.. a direction not conducive to platter health.

Obviously it had to
be loose enough to move when new so it may be beside the
point that loosening the screw frees it up.

Not quite sure what you mean by that, unless your meaning was similar to
my last remark in this reply.

Did you feel you're being watched and someone is so
desperate to get it that they're going to (try to) repair
the mechanics of the drive to get it working again?

Not at all, at least not on a personal level. However, bear in mind that
there are lots of people out there who are responsible for phishing
scams. It's not entirely outside the realm of possibility that a worker
at Seagate may occasionally take a drive home to see if (s)he can exhume
some of the previous owner's personal data from it. Admittedly, this is
not a great risk but on the other hand, I don't like showing my soft
underbelly whenever I can avoid it.

It's possible you just got a dud, but I would wonder about
your cooling and power supply... since this is the 2nd in
such a short interval to fail.

Cooling can't be the issue, since my fan works fine and there's no dust
buildup. Also, I've placed the tower where there are no obstructions to
the inlets. Power, on the other hand, may be another issue. Still
though, if these failures are of the read head arm pivot or bushing (or
bearing), then that most likely wouldn't be a power issue, but rather
simply a matter of a part physically wearing out too soon.

Sure, it's no big deal and you couldn't already had it sent
in.

Eh.. not sure I understand that sentence. If you mean that I could have
already sent it in, I can't do that until the drive totally fails.
Otherwise, as per Seagate's website, they will consider the drive
functional and that I was trying to engage in fraud.

Maybe you just need to do what everyone else does and either
throw it away or get the RMA replacement. You're making
things harder than they are.

Not at all. For one thing, you *can't* thow the defective drive away and
get a replacement from Seagate (or any other company.) You must send in
the defective drive and *then* they send you a replacement. The
replacement (as per Seagate's policy) is one that also was turned back
in and probably had the darned screw I mentioned loosened. And as
somebody else in this group said in a reply to my post regarding the
Maxtor's failure, such replacement drives may have been through as many
as nine owners!

No, Newegg does not sell used drives as new. If you bought
a "refurbished" drive from newegg, then that becomes
possible.

I was not accusing Newegg of fraud. I *was* stating that the possibility
exists that *Seagate* may be sending refurbished units to Newegg, and
then Newegg is unknowingly selling such units as new. In fact I warned
Newegg of that remote possibility in an email I sent them this morning.

And please don't tell me that it's impossible for Seagate to be capable
of such duplicity. Remember Enron? Look at how many big name mutual fund
companies have been found guilty of insider trading and outright fraud.
ANY company is not totally above suspicion.

However, as I said in my OP, the possibility that Seagate is actually
doing this is remote.

Based on your light usage, you do not need to religiously
defrag them,

By religiously, I mean monthly.

and indeed that IS an intensive use... moreso
than most anything as the drive is continually writing as
fast as it can.

That, I am indeed fully aware of. However, I guess it's a tradeoff
between whether you are willing to put up with excessive read head
activity when defragging *or* excessive read head activity and more
likely file corruption on a continuing basis due to excessive
defragmentation.

If Windows is crashing on you that often, you may have viri,
buggy applications, or buggy drivers. Try replacing those.
Most Win2k or XP users are not frequently power cycling
their systems for crash-related reasons unless above issues
are at play.

--
Regards from John Corliss
My current killfile: aafuss, Chrissy Cruiser, Slowhand Hussein and others.
No adware, cdware, commercial software, crippleware, demoware, nagware,
PROmotionware, shareware, spyware, time-limited software, trialware,
viruses or warez please.

 

[John Corliss]

John Corliss wrote:



At any point in time, a manufacturer is using platters with
"X" amount of capacity per. Different models might have
different platters, or you might sometimes buy old stock
using the last, lower density, but it's still a similar
situation. How many platters are used depends on total
capacity divided by # of platters to attain that capacity.
IIRC, everyone is now up to 120GB/platter so again, if you
bought anything over 120GB, you'd get more than one platter
(on typical low-end drives, others like a WD Raptor or SCSI
still use lower density platters often).

Thanks for that clarification. And as I said, I'm no expert. 80)>

MIght be a sign that the bearings are deformed,

Eh.... my observation was that the read head pivot arm didn't *use* a
bearing. It looked a lot to me like it was simply a bushing.

and while
loosening the screw might make it move easier, that may just
allow more play in it's movement too.

I was thinking that exact thing, by which I mean not only might it free
up rotational movement, but also up and down movement of the read
heads.. a direction not conducive to platter health.

Obviously it had to
be loose enough to move when new so it may be beside the
point that loosening the screw frees it up.

Not quite sure what you mean by that, unless your meaning was similar to
my last remark in this reply.

Did you feel you're being watched and someone is so
desperate to get it that they're going to (try to) repair
the mechanics of the drive to get it working again?

Not at all, at least not on a personal level. However, bear in mind that
there are lots of people out there who are responsible for phishing
scams. It's not entirely outside the realm of possibility that a worker
at Seagate may occasionally take a drive home to see if (s)he can exhume
some of the previous owner's personal data from it. Admittedly, this is
not a great risk but on the other hand, I don't like showing my soft
underbelly whenever I can avoid it.

It's possible you just got a dud, but I would wonder about
your cooling and power supply... since this is the 2nd in
such a short interval to fail.

Cooling can't be the issue, since my fan works fine and there's no dust
buildup. Also, I've placed the tower where there are no obstructions to
the inlets. Power, on the other hand, may be another issue. Still
though, if these failures are of the read head arm pivot or bushing (or
bearing), then that most likely wouldn't be a power issue, but rather
simply a matter of a part physically wearing out too soon.

Sure, it's no big deal and you couldn't already had it sent
in.

Eh.. not sure I understand that sentence. If you mean that I could have
already sent it in, I can't do that until the drive totally fails.
Otherwise, as per Seagate's website, they will consider the drive
functional and that I was trying to engage in fraud.

Maybe you just need to do what everyone else does and either
throw it away or get the RMA replacement. You're making
things harder than they are.

Not at all. For one thing, you *can't* thow the defective drive away and
get a replacement from Seagate (or any other company.) You must send in
the defective drive and *then* they send you a replacement. The
replacement (as per Seagate's policy) is one that also was turned back
in and probably had the darned screw I mentioned loosened. And as
somebody else in this group said in a reply to my post regarding the
Maxtor's failure, such replacement drives may have been through as many
as nine owners!

No, Newegg does not sell used drives as new. If you bought
a "refurbished" drive from newegg, then that becomes
possible.

I was not accusing Newegg of fraud. I *was* stating that the possibility
exists that *Seagate* may be sending refurbished units to Newegg, and
then Newegg is unknowingly selling such units as new. In fact I warned
Newegg of that remote possibility in an email I sent them this morning.

And please don't tell me that it's impossible for Seagate to be capable
of such duplicity. Remember Enron? Look at how many big name mutual fund
companies have been found guilty of insider trading and outright fraud.
ANY company is not totally above suspicion.

However, as I said in my OP, the possibility that Seagate is actually
doing this is remote.

Based on your light usage, you do not need to religiously
defrag them,

By religiously, I mean monthly.

and indeed that IS an intensive use... moreso
than most anything as the drive is continually writing as
fast as it can.

That, I am indeed fully aware of. However, I guess it's a tradeoff
between whether a person is willing to put up with excessive read head
activity when defragging *or* put up with excessive read head activity
and a greater possibility of file corruption on a continuing basis due
to excessive defragmentation. I don't feel that my defrag schedule is
excessive. And in any event, if a hard drive can't stand up to the
amount of defragging that I do, it's a pitiful specimen indeed.

If Windows is crashing on you that often, you may have viri,
buggy applications, or buggy drivers. Try replacing those.
Most Win2k or XP users are not frequently power cycling
their systems for crash-related reasons unless above issues
are at play.

I use Millennium Edition. Most of my crashes are related to my graphics
card. New drivers haven't helped at all.

 

[Guest]

After a lot of research and asking around, I finally decided on a
Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 Plus PATA 8MB as the replacement.

Now however, after a mere 8 months of use, this new drive has ALSO
started with the dreaded "click... click... click... click..."

I can surely send it back to Seagate and get a replacement, but is it
worth it? Their website clearly states that the replacement will be
another returned unit which has been "repaired and then low level
formatted. Great. Just what I want. Somebody else's used crap.

At least several years ago, factory repaired drives were mechanically
almost new, with only the lid and aluminum casting reused (casting got
a new anti-stick anti-dust coating). The circuit board was either new
or repaired (the high power chips -- motor and head servo drivers,
always replaced). I don't know if this is still done, but in my fairly
limited experience warranty replacement hard drives are as good as new.
But that hasn't been my even more limited experience with monitors,
fax machines, and printers, including some Japanese brands (PanaSorry
refurbs can be pure garbage and the company very hard to deal with).

 

[Michael C]

Eh.... my observation was that the read head pivot arm didn't *use* a
bearing. It looked a lot to me like it was simply a bushing.

The one I pulled apart had a bearing. Pity you missed the chance to see it
running with the lid off, it's quite amazing. When copying data from one
location to another the head moved so fast it just looked like it was in
both places at once.

Michael

 

[DevilsPGD]

In message <[email protected]> John Corliss

I use Millennium Edition. Most of my crashes are related to my graphics
card. New drivers haven't helped at all.

It's likely due to ME. The 9x line was never all that stable to begin
with, and ME was worst then most. I'd either go back to 98SE, or to an
NT-based OS (2000 or XP, depending on your needs, but I'd generally
recommend XP if you're willing to invest 10 minutes to turn off the
fisher price interface)

As a general rule if you're seeing any crashes at all in day to day use
in 2000 or XP, you've either got some bad hardware (Power supply and RAM
and likely candidates for infrequent but unreproducable crashes), bad
drivers, or a combination of the two.

That being said, with repeatedly dying hard drives (I'm not sure two
counts as repeatedly, but it's a start) and instability together, I'd
take a serious look at your system's heat, and/or power supply's
stability.

Check the heat is easy, download some sort of distributed computing
software, and a hard drive eraser (that will wipe the available space
over and over), get the two running together for 10-20 minutes, then
open the case and touch the hard drive, and touch the CPU heatsink.

If either is too hot to touch for an ongoing period of time, you might
have a problem. Checking fans is a start, but if the airflow in your
case is just really bad to begin with then fans may not be enough.

The power supply is a little tougher unless you have a voltmeter -- If
you do, watch the voltages over a brief period of time while the system
is active, and while as much hardware as possible is active too (burning
a CD, reading/writing the floppy, CPU at 100%, etc)

It also wouldn't hurt to run memtest86 for a few hours and see if
anything shows up.

All just semi-random suggestions based on experience...

 

[John Corliss]

The one I pulled apart had a bearing. Pity you missed the chance to see it
running with the lid off, it's quite amazing. When copying data from one
location to another the head moved so fast it just looked like it was in
both places at once.

You're right, I would have liked to have seen that. Hopefully though, I
won't have a chance to do this very soon because strangely enough this
one has (for the time being at least) quit making the noise and seems to
be running fine now. I'll give it until Thursday before I trust it again.

See, I'd set this new one up with two partitions, but still have only
one partition on my backup hard drive. My multimedia files are on the
second partition of the first hard drive and thus, weren't backed up. I
kept putting off fdisking my backup into two partitions because I
thought I didn't need to worry about it since the main drive is only
eight months old. The problem is that when I run XXCopy:

http://www.xxcopy.com/index.htm

to clone the main disk's first partition to the only partition on the
backup, it will delete any files on the backup that that first partition
doesn't have (i.e., XXCopy is "synchronizing" the first partition and
the backup hard drive.) On the night my hard drive started making the
noise, I quickly created a folder on the backup drive and then copied
all of my multimedia files to it from the second partition on my main
hard drive. The problem here then, is that the next time I run XXCopy
all of the backup copies of my multimedia files will disappear.

The solution would have been for me to have gotten off of my ass and
fdisked the backup drive into two partitions long ago, then set up a
shortcut to synchronize the second partitions on both drives. Now I will
have to wait until Thursday before I feel comfortable doing that. And
yes, I know I could back up the files to disc, but I don't have a DVD
burner and there are too many files to back them up on CD. Well, at any
rate... I guess I could try. 80)>

 

[John Corliss]

It's likely due to ME. The 9x line was never all that stable to begin
with, and ME was worst then most. I'd either go back to 98SE, or to an
NT-based OS (2000 or XP, depending on your needs, but I'd generally
recommend XP if you're willing to invest 10 minutes to turn off the
fisher price interface)

The problem with XP is that I have legacy devices for which the XP
drivers are unacceptable. At least from what I've read. However, lately
I've been considering biting that nasty bullet and making an attempt to
upgrade. I still hate "product activation" and the thought of having to
deal with interversion changes.

As a general rule if you're seeing any crashes at all in day to day use
in 2000 or XP, you've either got some bad hardware (Power supply and RAM
and likely candidates for infrequent but unreproducable crashes), bad
drivers, or a combination of the two.

Actually, I don't get crashes but rather lockups. Those are entirely
software related. This computer's hardware is in pretty good shape.

That being said, with repeatedly dying hard drives (I'm not sure two
counts as repeatedly, but it's a start) and instability together, I'd
take a serious look at your system's heat, and/or power supply's
stability.

Check the heat is easy, download some sort of distributed computing
software, and a hard drive eraser (that will wipe the available space
over and over), get the two running together for 10-20 minutes, then
open the case and touch the hard drive, and touch the CPU heatsink.

I've gone into my system's BIOS and noted that the monitored temps are
well within allowed specs. At any rate, the computer has "idiot" alarms
should the thing get too hot.

If either is too hot to touch for an ongoing period of time, you might
have a problem. Checking fans is a start, but if the airflow in your
case is just really bad to begin with then fans may not be enough.

I've maximized the airflow and keep a close eye on it. At any rate
though, like I said, I've not been experiencing system crashes but
rather software related lockups.

The power supply is a little tougher unless you have a voltmeter -- If
you do, watch the voltages over a brief period of time while the system
is active, and while as much hardware as possible is active too (burning
a CD, reading/writing the floppy, CPU at 100%, etc)

It also wouldn't hurt to run memtest86 for a few hours and see if
anything shows up.

All just semi-random suggestions based on experience...

Thanks very much for your reply, but I don't think the problems are
hardware related. And as I mentioned in another reply to this thread
this morning, the drive seems to be functioning normally again today.
However, experience has shown me that once you hear the click of
impending doom, a drive is not long for this world.

 

[John Corliss]

At least several years ago, factory repaired drives were mechanically
almost new, with only the lid and aluminum casting reused (casting got
a new anti-stick anti-dust coating). The circuit board was either new
or repaired (the high power chips -- motor and head servo drivers,
always replaced). I don't know if this is still done, but in my fairly
limited experience warranty replacement hard drives are as good as new.
But that hasn't been my even more limited experience with monitors,
fax machines, and printers, including some Japanese brands (PanaSorry
refurbs can be pure garbage and the company very hard to deal with).

Thanks for the warning about Panasonic. Strange too, because every other
thing I've bought from them... my microwave, a radio, a small ghetto
blaster, etc. has held up real well. However, I've never owned any
computer related stuff from them.

 

[kony]

The problem with XP is that I have legacy devices for which the XP
drivers are unacceptable. At least from what I've read. However, lately
I've been considering biting that nasty bullet and making an attempt to
upgrade. I still hate "product activation" and the thought of having to
deal with interversion changes.

There are (were?) various guides on the 'net to aid in
disabling many of WinME's features- once you disable enough
of them then WinME essentially becomes like a moderately
patched Win98SE.

Note that many people who found stability problems with ME
or 98SE, also had issues with applications or drivers. Just
as operating systems got (arguably) better over time, so did
apps and drivers. In other words, Win98 or ME can be ran
much more stabily today than a few years ago due to the
better drivers and apps being matured. One problem is still
that if you "need" something buggy, you'll just have to
tolerate it.

I've maximized the airflow and keep a close eye on it. At any rate
though, like I said, I've not been experiencing system crashes but
rather software related lockups.

One serious limitation a power user will face on 9x is more
limited resources. It can be beneficial to reboot every now
and then, not leaving the system up for more than (whatever
interval the apps require if buggy) a few days otherwise.

 

[John Corliss]

There are (were?) various guides on the 'net to aid in
disabling many of WinME's features- once you disable enough
of them then WinME essentially becomes like a moderately
patched Win98SE.

Yeah, I'm aware of those. However, I always though deactivating System
Restore was a bad idea. It's bailed me out of several situations. There
are other mods as well. As far as ME being unstable, I think most of the
people who are replying to this thread are assuming that I have an
intolerably unstable system and this is simply not the case. Here is the
entirety of the only reference I made in my OP to lockups and restarting:

"However, and as I'm sure you are well aware, all version of Microsoft
Windows are so unstable that the occasional power button method ("cold
reboot") of turning off a system is unavoidable. When this occurs, I
always wait at least seven seconds before restarting the computer."

Note that many people who found stability problems with ME
or 98SE, also had issues with applications or drivers. Just
as operating systems got (arguably) better over time, so did
apps and drivers. In other words, Win98 or ME can be ran
much more stabily today than a few years ago due to the
better drivers

The ME driver for my ancient HP Deskjet 855C makes the output look like
that from a dot matrix printer. Strangely enough, the Windows 95 drivers
work perfectly and have never caused any problems.

and apps being matured. One problem is still
that if you "need" something buggy,

Not "buggy", just "legacy".

you'll just have to tolerate it.

Well, that's pretty obvious. However, I'm simply not inclined to replace
hardware every few years like the manufacturers would like people to do.
And there is no excuse for the short lifespans of these newer, larger
capacity hard drives.

One serious limitation a power user will face on 9x is more
limited resources.

I know, and that's why (for instance) I long ago stopped using ZoneAlarm
and replaced it with Kerio (2.1.5). Tremendous difference in resource
consumption.

It can be beneficial to reboot every now and then,

Heh. No way you could know, but I'm not exactly a novice. Been using
computers since the 70s. And yes, I agree - It's a good idea to reboot
once in a while to unload .dlls from memory. I keep the Resource Meter
running in the tray and when it drops below say, 65 percent on System
and User, it's time to reboot.

not leaving the system up for more than (whatever
interval the apps require if buggy) a few days otherwise.

Well, as I've said in other replies to this thread, I don't get crashes
but rather lockups. The times I've had to use the power button have been
few. And I've seen that happend on XP machines too. I am not one of
those people who leave their computer on continuously. I turn it off
when I'm not using it.

Thanks for replying! 80)>

--
Regards from John Corliss
My current killfile: aafuss, Chrissy Cruiser, Slowhand Hussein and others.
No adware, cdware, commercial software, crippleware, demoware, nagware,
PROmotionware, shareware, spyware, time-limited software, trialware,
viruses or warez please.

 

[John Corliss]

There are (were?) various guides on the 'net to aid in
disabling many of WinME's features- once you disable enough
of them then WinME essentially becomes like a moderately
patched Win98SE.

Yeah, I'm aware of those. However, I always though deactivating System
Restore was a bad idea. It's bailed me out of several situations. There
are other mods as well. As far as ME being unstable, I think most of the
people who are replying to this thread are assuming that I have an
intolerably unstable system and this is simply not the case. Here is the
entirety of the only reference I made in my OP to lockups and restarting:

"However, and as I'm sure you are well aware, all version of Microsoft
Windows are so unstable that the occasional power button method ("cold
reboot") of turning off a system is unavoidable. When this occurs, I
always wait at least seven seconds before restarting the computer."

Note that many people who found stability problems with ME
or 98SE, also had issues with applications or drivers. Just
as operating systems got (arguably) better over time, so did
apps and drivers. In other words, Win98 or ME can be ran
much more stabily today than a few years ago due to the
better drivers

The ME driver for my ancient HP Deskjet 855C makes the output look like
that from a dot matrix printer. Strangely enough, the Windows 95 drivers
work perfectly and have never caused any problems.

and apps being matured. One problem is still
that if you "need" something buggy,

Not "buggy", just "legacy".

you'll just have to tolerate it.

Well, that's pretty obvious. However, I'm simply not inclined to replace
hardware every few years like the manufacturers would like people to do.
And there is no excuse for the short lifespans of these newer, larger
capacity hard drives.

One serious limitation a power user will face on 9x is more
limited resources.

I know, and that's why (for instance) I long ago stopped using ZoneAlarm
and replaced it with Kerio (2.1.5). Tremendous difference in resource
consumption.

It can be beneficial to reboot every now and then,

Heh. No way you could know, but I'm not exactly a novice. Been using
computers since the 70s. And yes, I agree - It's a good idea to reboot
once in a while to unload .dlls from memory. I keep the Resource Meter
running in the tray and when it drops below say, 65 percent on System
and User, it's time to reboot.

not leaving the system up for more than (whatever
interval the apps require if buggy) a few days otherwise.

Well, as I've said in other replies to this thread, I don't get crashes
but rather lockups. The times I've had to use the power button have been
few. And I've seen that happend on XP machines too. I am not one of
those people who leave their computer on continuously. I turn it off
when I'm not using it.

Thanks for replying! 80)>

 

[rantonrave]

(e-mail address removed) wrote:

Thanks for the warning about Panasonic. Strange too,
because every other thing I've bought from them...
my microwave, a radio, a small ghetto blaster, etc.
has held up real well. However, I've never owned any
computer related stuff from them.

My experience mirrors what both of you wrote - good brand new products,
often poor service with repaired or refurbished products. Their
service may be why the Better Business Bureau gives them an
unsatisfactory rating, something that must be unheard of for any
company their size. And the rating isn't for one of their regional
divisions but their headquarters in New Jersey.

I had a monitor replaced 3 times with refurbs, and the last 2 had
clearly visible external damage, one having been dropped at the repair
center before being placed in the shipping container. Internally they
had unconnected wires, unsoldered components, and a fairly large piece
of sheet metal missing. Their service in this case was so bad that I
bought the repair manual and requested that parts be given to me so I
could perform the repairs myself. They sent me a whole front bezel but
refused to supply the missing metal piece, claiming they never gave out
warranty repair parts to consumers. They even eventually got their
legal department involved, which surprised me because I thought
Japanese companies hated lawyers. And you know how lawyers like to
handle matters in the most inefficient ways possible - I was sent an
FedEx overnight letter, at a cost higher than the part I had requested.
And throughout this miserable experience, I was never intentionally
allowed to speak with anybody technically competent, and even a person
described by a manager as "one of my best technicians" couldn't explain
several common and basic concepts related to computer monitors. I say
"intentionally" because I was once accidentally connected to their TV
broadcast equipment division, where the person I spoke with knew
everything about monitors but wasn't authorized to do anything about my
particular product.

So my advice is, buy Panasonic, but only with a credit card, and only
from a great store that's generous with exchanges and refunds, and be
sure good local warranty service is available (look for a shop where
everybody is a CET or has been through a manufacturer's school).

 

[John Corliss]

John Corliss wrote:



At any point in time, a manufacturer is using platters with
"X" amount of capacity per. Different models might have
different platters, or you might sometimes buy old stock
using the last, lower density, but it's still a similar
situation. How many platters are used depends on total
capacity divided by # of platters to attain that capacity.
IIRC, everyone is now up to 120GB/platter so again, if you
bought anything over 120GB, you'd get more than one platter
(on typical low-end drives, others like a WD Raptor or SCSI
still use lower density platters often).

Thanks for that clarification. And as I said, I'm no expert. 80)>

MIght be a sign that the bearings are deformed,

Eh.... my observation was that the read head pivot arm didn't *use* a
bearing. It looked a lot to me like it was simply a bushing.

and while
loosening the screw might make it move easier, that may just
allow more play in it's movement too.

I was thinking that exact thing, by which I mean not only might it free
up rotational movement, but also up and down movement of the read
heads.. a direction not conducive to platter health.

Obviously it had to
be loose enough to move when new so it may be beside the
point that loosening the screw frees it up.

Not quite sure what you mean by that, unless your meaning was similar to
my last remark in this reply.

Did you feel you're being watched and someone is so
desperate to get it that they're going to (try to) repair
the mechanics of the drive to get it working again?

Not at all, at least not on a personal level. However, bear in mind that
there are lots of people out there who are responsible for phishing
scams. It's not entirely outside the realm of possibility that a worker
at Seagate may occasionally take a drive home to see if (s)he can exhume
some of the previous owner's personal data from it. Admittedly, this is
not a great risk but on the other hand, I don't like showing my soft
underbelly whenever I can avoid it.

It's possible you just got a dud, but I would wonder about
your cooling and power supply... since this is the 2nd in
such a short interval to fail.

Cooling can't be the issue, since my fan works fine and there's no dust
buildup. Also, I've placed the tower where there are no obstructions to
the inlets. Power, on the other hand, may be another issue. Still
though, if these failures are of the read head arm pivot or bushing (or
bearing), then that most likely wouldn't be a power issue, but rather
simply a matter of a part physically wearing out too soon.

Sure, it's no big deal and you couldn't already had it sent
in.

Eh.. not sure I understand that sentence. If you mean that I could have
already sent it in, I can't do that until the drive totally fails.
Otherwise, as per Seagate's website, they will consider the drive
functional and that I was trying to engage in fraud.

Maybe you just need to do what everyone else does and either
throw it away or get the RMA replacement. You're making
things harder than they are.

Not at all. For one thing, you *can't* thow the defective drive away and
get a replacement from Seagate (or any other company.) You must send in
the defective drive and *then* they send you a replacement. The
replacement (as per Seagate's policy) is one that also was turned back
in and probably had the darned screw I mentioned loosened. And as
somebody else in this group said in a reply to my post regarding the
Maxtor's failure, such replacement drives may have been through as many
as nine owners!

No, Newegg does not sell used drives as new. If you bought
a "refurbished" drive from newegg, then that becomes
possible.

I was not accusing Newegg of fraud. I *was* stating that the possibility
exists that *Seagate* may be sending refurbished units to Newegg, and
then Newegg is unknowingly selling such units as new. In fact I warned
Newegg of that remote possibility in an email I sent them this morning.

And please don't tell me that it's impossible for Seagate to be capable
of such duplicity. Remember Enron? Look at how many big name mutual fund
companies have been found guilty of insider trading and outright fraud.
ANY company is not totally above suspicion.

However, as I said in my OP, the possibility that Seagate is actually
doing this is remote.

Based on your light usage, you do not need to religiously
defrag them,

By religiously, I mean monthly.

and indeed that IS an intensive use... moreso
than most anything as the drive is continually writing as
fast as it can.

That, I am indeed fully aware of. However, I guess it's a tradeoff
between whether you are willing to put up with excessive read head
activity when defragging *or* excessive read head activity and more
likely file corruption on a continuing basis due to excessive
defragmentation.

 

[John Corliss]

There are (were?) various guides on the 'net to aid in
disabling many of WinME's features- once you disable enough
of them then WinME essentially becomes like a moderately
patched Win98SE.

Yeah, I'm aware of those. However, I always though deactivating System
Restore was a bad idea. It's bailed me out of several situations. There
are other mods as well. As far as ME being unstable, I think most of the
people who are replying to this thread are assuming that I have an
intolerably unstable system and this is simply not the case. Here is the
entirety of the only reference I made in my OP to lockups and restarting:

"However, and as I'm sure you are well aware, all version of Microsoft
Windows are so unstable that the occasional power button method ("cold
reboot") of turning off a system is unavoidable. When this occurs, I
always wait at least seven seconds before restarting the computer."

Note that many people who found stability problems with ME
or 98SE, also had issues with applications or drivers. Just
as operating systems got (arguably) better over time, so did
apps and drivers. In other words, Win98 or ME can be ran
much more stabily today than a few years ago due to the
better drivers

The ME driver for my ancient HP Deskjet 855C makes the output look like
that from a dot matrix printer. Strangely enough, the Windows 95 drivers
work perfectly and have never caused any problems.

and apps being matured. One problem is still
that if you "need" something buggy,

Not "buggy", just "legacy".

you'll just have to tolerate it.

Well, that's pretty obvious. However, I'm simply not inclined to replace
hardware every few years like the manufacturers would like people to do.
And there is no excuse for the short lifespans of these newer, larger
capacity hard drives.

One serious limitation a power user will face on 9x is more
limited resources.

I know, and that's why (for instance) I long ago stopped using ZoneAlarm
and replaced it with Kerio (2.1.5). Tremendous difference in resource
consumption.

It can be beneficial to reboot every now and then,

Heh. No way you could know, but I'm not exactly a novice. Been using
computers since the 70s. And yes, I agree - It's a good idea to reboot
once in a while to unload .dlls from memory. I keep the Resource Meter
running in the tray and when it drops below say, 65 percent on System
and User, it's time to reboot.

not leaving the system up for more than (whatever
interval the apps require if buggy) a few days otherwise.

Well, as I've said in other replies to this thread, I don't get crashes
but rather lockups. The times I've had to use the power button have been
few. And I've seen that happend on XP machines too. I am not one of
those people who leave their computer on continuously. I turn it off
when I'm not using it.

Thanks for replying! 80)>