good surge protector?

[Jo-Anne]

I have a laptop and a netbook both running WinXP and with a DSL connection
to the internet. I use both computers wirelessly in my home and have a
modem/router from my ISP, Frontier Communications (used to be Verizon).

A couple days ago my area had multiple power outages. I turned off the
computers right away. A couple hours later, when I turned them on and tried
to get to the internet, I couldn't--and the Internet light on my modem was
out. Frontier sent out a repairman with a new modem, which lit up properly.
(It took a call to tech support by the repairman to actually connect to the
internet again.)

I realize that I should have had the modem/router plugged into a surge
protector (the one I use for the laptop and printer is too far away from the
router). I also need to plug the netbook into a surge protector; it's far
away from everything else.

Any recommendations for a good surge protector that would work for both the
netbook and the modem/router (I'd buy two of them)?

Thank you!

Jo-Anne

 

[Yousuf Khan]

I have a laptop and a netbook both running WinXP and with a DSL connection
to the internet. I use both computers wirelessly in my home and have a
modem/router from my ISP, Frontier Communications (used to be Verizon).

A couple days ago my area had multiple power outages. I turned off the
computers right away. A couple hours later, when I turned them on and tried
to get to the internet, I couldn't--and the Internet light on my modem was
out. Frontier sent out a repairman with a new modem, which lit up properly.
(It took a call to tech support by the repairman to actually connect to the
internet again.)

I realize that I should have had the modem/router plugged into a surge
protector (the one I use for the laptop and printer is too far away from the
router). I also need to plug the netbook into a surge protector; it's far
away from everything else.

Any recommendations for a good surge protector that would work for both the
netbook and the modem/router (I'd buy two of them)?

Surge protectors are a dime-a-dozen, I don't think you'll get a better
unit by spending more. If you get the interruptions frequently in your
area, then you should go for a UPS. For your modems, a cheap one should
be more than plenty.

Yousuf Khan

 

[Jo-Anne]

Surge protectors are a dime-a-dozen, I don't think you'll get a better
unit by spending more. If you get the interruptions frequently in your
area, then you should go for a UPS. For your modems, a cheap one should be
more than plenty.

Yousuf Khan

Thank you! There are so many to choose from. I guess I can go by reviews to
some degree, especially when there are lots of them and they're almost all
positive.

Jo-Anne

 

[Paul]

Surge protectors are a dime-a-dozen, I don't think you'll get a better
unit by spending more. If you get the interruptions frequently in your
area, then you should go for a UPS. For your modems, a cheap one should
be more than plenty.

Yousuf Khan

I use the dime-a-dozen variety myself, but for an install back home,
I used one of these. I used this, so all the gear could be turned off
at once. This box has room for mounting screws, and I mounted it on the
side of the desk.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842111078

It has a pair of RJ-11 jacks on the side, for "passthru" protection of
a phone line. But on the home setup, all we had was dialup, and
I don't know whether this protection upsets ADSL frequencies or
not. But this might clip garbage coming in over a phone line.
(At the demarcation point in the basement, the phone line likely
has some of its own protection.)

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/42-111-078-Z03?$S640W$

In my ADSL setup here, I use a dime-a-dozen protector, with the
same style passthru RJ-11 protection, and it doesn't seem to affect
the ADSL at all. The protector was designed, before ADSL came along,
which is why I was a bit worried about it.

That Tripplite box has a 90 degree AC plug, for flush mount
behind furniture. Which can be a blessing or a curse, depending
on your setup.

Paul

 

[Jo-Anne]

I use the dime-a-dozen variety myself, but for an install back home,
I used one of these. I used this, so all the gear could be turned off
at once. This box has room for mounting screws, and I mounted it on the
side of the desk.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842111078

It has a pair of RJ-11 jacks on the side, for "passthru" protection of
a phone line. But on the home setup, all we had was dialup, and
I don't know whether this protection upsets ADSL frequencies or
not. But this might clip garbage coming in over a phone line.
(At the demarcation point in the basement, the phone line likely
has some of its own protection.)

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/42-111-078-Z03?$S640W$

In my ADSL setup here, I use a dime-a-dozen protector, with the
same style passthru RJ-11 protection, and it doesn't seem to affect
the ADSL at all. The protector was designed, before ADSL came along,
which is why I was a bit worried about it.

That Tripplite box has a 90 degree AC plug, for flush mount
behind furniture. Which can be a blessing or a curse, depending
on your setup.

Paul

Thank you, Paul! I plug my laptop, fax machine, and printer into the
4-outlet Tripp-Lite model just like the 6-outlet one you linked to at
Newegg. I've had it for at least a few years. No problems so far. So maybe I
should splurge and get another one for the modem/router and phone and a
cheapie for the netbook.

Jo-Anne

 

[w_tom]

In my ADSL setup here, I use a dime-a-dozen protector, with the
same style passthru RJ-11 protection, and it doesn't seem to affect
the ADSL at all. The protector was designed, before ADSL came along,
which is why I was a bit worried about it.

View manufacturer's spec numbers. The 'dime a dozen' protector
contains a protector circuit similar to other protectors selling for
$40 or $90. Don't take anyone's word for it. Consult the
manufacturer's spec numbers.

A $4 power strip with ten cent protector parts sells for $7 in Wal-
Mart. Or for over $100 as a Monster protector. The profit center
works because so many recommend it without even asking what a
protector does. And by ignoring those manufacturer’s specs.

You had multiple power outages. That means 120 volts became zero
volts. The protector does absolutely nothing until voltages exceed
330 volts. Again, don't take anyone's word for it. That let-through
voltage number is written on its box.

Protectors are for 120 volts going to thousands of volts. Power
outages are 120 volts dropping to zero volts. The protector would do
nothing but enrich its manufacturer.

BTW, did you know your modem was already plugged into a surge
protector? All DSL lines already have a superior protector installed
for free. Others should have known that before making a
recommendation. And should have referenced those spec numbers.

Other problems could explain your damage.

 

[Paul]

View manufacturer's spec numbers. The 'dime a dozen' protector
contains a protector circuit similar to other protectors selling for
$40 or $90. Don't take anyone's word for it. Consult the
manufacturer's spec numbers.

A $4 power strip with ten cent protector parts sells for $7 in Wal-
Mart. Or for over $100 as a Monster protector. The profit center
works because so many recommend it without even asking what a
protector does. And by ignoring those manufacturer’s specs.

You had multiple power outages. That means 120 volts became zero
volts. The protector does absolutely nothing until voltages exceed
330 volts. Again, don't take anyone's word for it. That let-through
voltage number is written on its box.

Protectors are for 120 volts going to thousands of volts. Power
outages are 120 volts dropping to zero volts. The protector would do
nothing but enrich its manufacturer.

BTW, did you know your modem was already plugged into a surge
protector? All DSL lines already have a superior protector installed
for free. Others should have known that before making a
recommendation. And should have referenced those spec numbers.

Other problems could explain your damage.

That's not the point of the suggestion.

Jo-Anne asked where she could find a protector, and I pointed one out.

I didn't attempt to provide any analysis of the current damage event.
There is no evidence that I could see, from the description, that the
damaging event came in through the phone line. It might have come in
through the power line.

No solution is absolute, and then it's a question of which solutions
are better than nothing.

If you sit in your house, running on batteries or a Honda generator,
using Wifi for networking, that would be reasonably good, but
pretty impractical. Then it would take an EMP to knock you out.

*******

As for this statement

"All DSL lines already have a superior protector"

where is that located exactly, in a customer installed ADSL setup ?

The phone company does nothing to the line, between the remote (a block and
a half away) and the house, and the demarcation point (in my basement) hasn't
been changed either. It's unlike the telephone company, to do a "truck roll"
for a residential ADSL installation (so Jo-Anne isn't likely to have
extra premises equipment either), so no opportunity for installing anything.
The line is just as ready to be affected by external events, as it was
before you ordered ADSL. In my neighborhood, as near
as I can tell, the remote handles everything, as the passive wiring
pedestal was removed. Our phone lines, do travel on poles here,
so the path from the remote to my house, does take an aerial path.

Paul

 

[Char Jackson]

Thank you, Paul! I plug my laptop, fax machine, and printer into the
4-outlet Tripp-Lite model just like the 6-outlet one you linked to at
Newegg. I've had it for at least a few years. No problems so far. So maybe I
should splurge and get another one for the modem/router and phone and a
cheapie for the netbook.

Keep in mind that the dime a dozen units typically get their
protection by using MOV's, Metal Oxide Varistors, and the MOV's
primarily provide protection from noise and spikes by absorbing it.
Thus, they get damaged over time, some quicker than others, depending
on what they've been subjected to. A unit that's a few years old may
be little more than an outlet strip by now, providing little or no
protection.

 

[w_tom]

Keep in mind that the dime a dozen units typically get their
protection by using MOV's, Metal Oxide Varistors, and the MOV's
primarily provide protection from noise and spikes by absorbing it.

All power strip protectors use similar circuits and MOVs. Only
protectors that are grossly undersized (that are profit centers)
degrade with use. Properly installed protectors make direct lightning
strikes irrelevant and remain functional. Typically cost tens or 100
times less money. Why does so much advertising promote a power strip
protector? A $4 power strip with ten cent protector parts sells for
$30 or $100. It is a profit center.

Homes already have a superior protector where telco wires connect to
yours. That protector is even required by the electrical code and FCC
regulations. Has existed longer than most posters. However many who
made recommendations do not even know of this existing and superior
solution.

OP defined a power outage problem. No protector protects from power
outages. A superior protector is installed on phone lines for free.
Numbers that define this were posted earlier. Other and better
protection exists that also cost less money. But first, as with all
problems, the problem must be defined before a solution can be
implemented. A protector does not protect from power outages.

 

[Jo-Anne]

All power strip protectors use similar circuits and MOVs. Only
protectors that are grossly undersized (that are profit centers)
degrade with use. Properly installed protectors make direct lightning
strikes irrelevant and remain functional. Typically cost tens or 100
times less money. Why does so much advertising promote a power strip
protector? A $4 power strip with ten cent protector parts sells for
$30 or $100. It is a profit center.

Homes already have a superior protector where telco wires connect to
yours. That protector is even required by the electrical code and FCC
regulations. Has existed longer than most posters. However many who
made recommendations do not even know of this existing and superior
solution.

OP defined a power outage problem. No protector protects from power
outages. A superior protector is installed on phone lines for free.
Numbers that define this were posted earlier. Other and better
protection exists that also cost less money. But first, as with all
problems, the problem must be defined before a solution can be
implemented. A protector does not protect from power outages.

Is it possible that what I perceived as multiple power outages (off-on,
off-on, off-on over a period of a minute or less) actually included one or
more surges as well? We were in the midst of thundersnow, and we did see
lightning and hear thunder, although there was no direct hit.

My printer, computer, and fax machines were plugged into a surge protector
and were fine. My modem and an adding machine were plugged into a wall
outlet in the same room; the modem appears to have been damaged, although
the adding machine wasn't.

Jo-Anne

 

[Jo-Anne]

That's not the point of the suggestion.

Jo-Anne asked where she could find a protector, and I pointed one out.

I didn't attempt to provide any analysis of the current damage event.
There is no evidence that I could see, from the description, that the
damaging event came in through the phone line. It might have come in
through the power line.

No solution is absolute, and then it's a question of which solutions
are better than nothing.

If you sit in your house, running on batteries or a Honda generator,
using Wifi for networking, that would be reasonably good, but
pretty impractical. Then it would take an EMP to knock you out.

*******

As for this statement

"All DSL lines already have a superior protector"

where is that located exactly, in a customer installed ADSL setup ?

The phone company does nothing to the line, between the remote (a block
and
a half away) and the house, and the demarcation point (in my basement)
hasn't
been changed either. It's unlike the telephone company, to do a "truck
roll"
for a residential ADSL installation (so Jo-Anne isn't likely to have
extra premises equipment either), so no opportunity for installing
anything.
The line is just as ready to be affected by external events, as it was
before you ordered ADSL. In my neighborhood, as near
as I can tell, the remote handles everything, as the passive wiring
pedestal was removed. Our phone lines, do travel on poles here,
so the path from the remote to my house, does take an aerial path.

Paul

One thing I forgot to mention, Paul, was that when we bought and remodeled
(gutted) this house, we had the phone line and the electrical lines buried.
Of course, they come from a pole not all that far from the house...

Re the ADSL setup, in theory we should probably have phone line protection.
When we remodeled, we hired an AV company to set up a wired network.
Everything--the phone line, the ethernet, and two coax cables--comes from a
box in the basement. I don't know, however, if the company actually
installed phone line protection; and I don't know how to tell by looking at
the box. Maybe I should call and ask.

Jo-Anne

 

[Jo-Anne]

Keep in mind that the dime a dozen units typically get their
protection by using MOV's, Metal Oxide Varistors, and the MOV's
primarily provide protection from noise and spikes by absorbing it.
Thus, they get damaged over time, some quicker than others, depending
on what they've been subjected to. A unit that's a few years old may
be little more than an outlet strip by now, providing little or no
protection.

Is there a way to tell if a surge protector is still protecting? My
Tripp-Lite is not a dime-a-dozen unit, but I've used it for several years. I
also have (but am not currently using) an old, rather expensive APC UPS. A
few years ago, when I thought it was still functional, a power surge
destroyed the fax machine and damaged the desktop computer plugged into it.
I replaced the batteries in the UPS, but I've been afraid to use it.

Jo-Anne

Jo-Anne

 

[Char Jackson]

Is there a way to tell if a surge protector is still protecting?

Not that I know of, at least not without some test tools.

Maybe someone else will chime in...

 

[Char Jackson]

All power strip protectors use similar circuits and MOVs. Only
protectors that are grossly undersized (that are profit centers)
degrade with use.

And I think those are the exact ones being discussed here.

Properly installed protectors make direct lightning
strikes irrelevant and remain functional. Typically cost tens or 100
times less money. Why does so much advertising promote a power strip
protector? A $4 power strip with ten cent protector parts sells for
$30 or $100. It is a profit center.

Of course, but most people aren't willing or able to build their own.

Homes already have a superior protector where telco wires connect to
yours. That protector is even required by the electrical code and FCC
regulations. Has existed longer than most posters. However many who
made recommendations do not even know of this existing and superior
solution.

Telco protection doesn't help the electrical lines.

OP defined a power outage problem. No protector protects from power
outages. A superior protector is installed on phone lines for free.
Numbers that define this were posted earlier. Other and better
protection exists that also cost less money.

Seems like you're jumping back and forth between telco and power.

But first, as with all
problems, the problem must be defined before a solution can be
implemented. A protector does not protect from power outages.

Totally agreed.

 

[w_tom]

Seems like you're jumping back and forth between telco and power.

The OP's modem (and most everything else in the house) is connected
to one or both. If either is a reason for modem damage, then all
require a well proven solution. Well proven solution costs less than
what was paid for a typical power strip protector. Some of the well
proven solutions are already installed, for free, at every home.

Nobody said a consumer need build a protector. A best solution may
even be installed by the girl who reads electric meter. One of many
well proven options.

The OP has numerous solutions. One fact we do know. A protector
does nothing for power outages. As even manufacturer spec numbers so
bluntly state. . Anyone discussing that (ie a protector adjacent to
the netbook) as a solution to the OP's original problem is simply
parroting advertising and popular urban myths. As if some magic box
will miraculous solve all problems.

 

[Paul]

One thing I forgot to mention, Paul, was that when we bought and remodeled
(gutted) this house, we had the phone line and the electrical lines buried.
Of course, they come from a pole not all that far from the house...

Re the ADSL setup, in theory we should probably have phone line protection.
When we remodeled, we hired an AV company to set up a wired network.
Everything--the phone line, the ethernet, and two coax cables--comes from a
box in the basement. I don't know, however, if the company actually
installed phone line protection; and I don't know how to tell by looking at
the box. Maybe I should call and ask.

Jo-Anne

Around here, if you ordered VDSL, I think the phone company does install a box.
I'm not even sure that's available on my street. It's not completely deployed yet,
and probably won't be, for some time. (It'll certainly never show up
in rural areas. Only high density areas where they can make money.)

A box of that sort, could have some protection, and you'd be looking for a
ground wire of some sort, as proof they attempted to protect it.

The phone line in the old days, would have a carbon block, and a connection to ground.
I think outside the house, they installed a ground rod of some sort. But when
I look in the basement, in the panel on my house, I don't see anything that
looks like a protection device. Just a terminal block, and the phone wires
are screwed down onto the block. (Maybe the protection is inside the
terminal block ?)

And I've never lost a dialup modem, or an ADSL modem, and I've been here for
twenty years, so something must be protecting me.

With our $39 a month ADSL around here, the customer just plugs in a modem
and that's it. No truck roll. No telephone people in the house.

As for the design of the ADSL modem itself, it's completely floating.

----- two wire\
xfmr--- ADSL_chip ---- xfmr/ Ethernet four pairs
----- phone in/ | \ Transformer isolated
|
+--- two pronged AC adapter (no safety ground)

So there isn't any DC path at the ADSL modem, and little you can do to protect
the thing. If a common mode insult arrives on the phone line, all it has to
do, is jump all the insulation barriers. Whatever is in my wiring panel,
better be working good...

Paul

 

[Char Jackson]

The OP's modem (and most everything else in the house) is connected
to one or both. If either is a reason for modem damage, then all
require a well proven solution. ... Some of the well
proven solutions are already installed, for free, at every home.

What are some examples of well proven solutions that are already
installed at every house, are free, and cover both electrical and
telco lines? You've mentioned them several times, so I think it's time
to let us (me, anyway) know what they are so I can take advantage.

Well proven solution costs less than
what was paid for a typical power strip protector.

You say some of the well proven solutions are free, so yeah, free is
less than not free.

Nobody said a consumer need build a protector. A best solution may
even be installed by the girl who reads electric meter. One of many
well proven options.

That's not free where I live now, nor where I've lived in the past,
assuming you're referring to 'whole house protection' from the power
company and installed at the electrical demarc. Do you mean something
else?

The OP has numerous solutions. One fact we do know. A protector
does nothing for power outages.

I think that's obvious with respect to outages, but it's commonly
thought that other types of power problems frequently accompany
outages. Don't get stuck on the outage aspect. That's clearly not what
"surge protectors" are marketed for.

 

[Paul]

Is there a way to tell if a surge protector is still protecting? My
Tripp-Lite is not a dime-a-dozen unit, but I've used it for several years. I
also have (but am not currently using) an old, rather expensive APC UPS. A
few years ago, when I thought it was still functional, a power surge
destroyed the fax machine and damaged the desktop computer plugged into it.
I replaced the batteries in the UPS, but I've been afraid to use it.

Jo-Anne

All the surge protectors I have here, have a status LED. It's supposed
to provide a check that the protection devices are still present. It
does not do any sort of "capability" check, like check that it can handle
X number of joules. It's basically a check to see if it has been blown
clear and is no longer in the circuit.

The MOV can explode, and the bits can fly around inside the strip or
box. And I think that's the only case the LED on my surge protectors
would handle. If the thing is weak, and only has "half a lightning
bolt" left in it, I'd never know. The status LED would say everything
was "A-OK".

You can see the guts of this one, and a green status LED near the top of it.

http://img.tfd.com/cde/_MOV.GIF

On this surge protector, the status LED is the one on the left,
labeled "Protection Present".

http://codinghorror.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a85dcdae970b0120a86d5ac3970b-pi

This is a good MOV.

http://www.beananimal.com/media/9612/vr001[1]_250x329.jpg

A partially cooked MOV.

http://www.beananimal.com/media/9607/mov1burned[1]_250x187.jpg

A burned MOV.

http://www.beananimal.com/media/9617/worldproducts_varistors100p[1].jpg

Side blown off an MOV.

http://www.sellcom.com/images/nofail2.gif

And this used to be a power strip (probably overloaded, not an MOV fault )
Some of the Chinese strips wouldn't even pass any kind of inspection
or check, if you opened them up for a look. This strip was probably
something bought at the "dollar store". But because it's no longer
recognizable as a strip, there's no way to tell what brand it was.

http://www.obri.net/eeh/images/SurgeProFire2Jan03.JPG

Paul

 

[w_tom]

And I've never lost a dialupmodem, or an ADSLmodem, and I've been here for
twenty years, so something must be protecting me.

Destructive transients are typically once every seven years. A
number that varies significantly even within the same town.

DC paths are obviously irrelevant. Critical is a 'low impedance'
connection to earth. Direct Current and low impedance define two
different conditions. Why must a telco installed protector must be
connected 'less than 10 feet' to the single point earth ground? Every
word in that sentence has serious technical significance.

All electronics contain serious protection. For example, an
Ethernet port on that DSL modem is rated at least 2000 volts. The OP
and others are reminded: any subjective recommendation (no numbers) is
best considered erroneous or deceptive. Anyone who recommends
protection should even know that 2000 volt number. No numbers quickly
separates myths from science.

Meanwhile, the topic is damage created by a power “outage”. A
solution designed for 'thousands of volt' transients does nothing when
AC electric drops to zero volts. Other anomalies might explain modem
damage should the OP desire solutions. That power strip is not a
useful solution.

 

[w_tom]

And this used to be a power strip (probably overloaded, not an MOV fault )
...
http://www.obri.net/eeh/images/SurgeProFire2Jan03.JPG

An NC fire marshal describes why such events happen:
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol entitled "Surge Suppressor Fires" or
http://www.esdjournal.com/techpapr/Pharr/INVESTIGATING SURGE SUPPRESSOR FIRES.doc

... when one such fire occurred in a fire station.

Each had failed, the one caught on fire, ...

... most surge suppressors house MOVs and other components
inside plastic housings that ignite and contribute to fire
development.

Alternatively, fire investigators m[a]y correctly determine the
suppressor was involved in ignition but improperly categorize
the cause as overloading or other related failure initiated by
the user.

To avert fire, a grossly undersized protector must disconnect that
MOV as fast as possible. Sometimes that thermal fuse does not
disconnect fast enough. Then a house fire may occur.