External USB harddisk problem is driving me crazy

[Roger Hünen]

Greetings!

I am trying to make an external harddrive work on a friends PC,
but I cannot get it to work. First some data:

* The PC
- Medion PC MT5 (MED MT 115) with MD3500 mainboard (2004)
- latest Award BIOS released by Medion for this system
- 4x onboard USB 1.1 (Intel ICH2 chipset)
- 4x USB 2.0 (PCI card with VIA 5 chipset)
- Windows XP Home SP3 fully patched

* The disk #1
- Toshiba 3.5" 1TB
- USB 2.0 (USB 1.1 backward compatible)

* The disk #2
- Medion 3.5" 500GB
- USB 2.0 (USB 1.1 backward compatible)

* The symptoms
- After plugging in a disk into any USB port, windows does not
assign a drive letter
- The windows event log records many entries with NTFS error 51
while a disk is connected
- When a disk is connected for the first time, windows says that
it sees a new disk but then does nothing
- When a disk is connected for the second time, widows says that
the device is malfunctioning and classifies the disk as an
unknown device; programs like Device Manager hang until the
disk is unplugged
- USB 2.0 memory sticks work just fine on both USB 1.1 and 2.0
ports
- Both harddisks work just fine on various other PCs

At first I thought some program was interfering, so I uninstalled
third party USB drivers, etc. No luck.

Then I tried installing a clean copy of Windows XP in a second
partion. Same symptoms. So I figured that Windows was not to blame,
directing my efforts towards hardware and BIOS.

The BIOS is up to date, so nothing here that I can do.

Last thing I tried was to clear the mainboard CMOS memory (remove
battery for a minute). No improvement.

So I am now completely lost and feeling clueless...

I am wondering what is causing this (BIOS bug causing hardware to
be initialized incorrectly?) and if there is anything that I can
do to fix this (other then recommend to buy a new PC).

Any pointers are greatly appreciated!

Regards,
-Roger

 

[mscotgrove]

Greetings!

I am trying to make an external harddrive work on a friends PC,
but I cannot get it to work. First some data:

* The PC
   - Medion PC MT5 (MED MT 115) with MD3500 mainboard (2004)
   - latest Award BIOS released by Medion for this system
   - 4x onboard USB 1.1 (Intel ICH2 chipset)
   - 4x USB 2.0 (PCI card with VIA 5 chipset)
   - Windows XP Home SP3 fully patched

* The disk #1
   - Toshiba 3.5" 1TB
   - USB 2.0 (USB 1.1 backward compatible)

* The disk #2
   - Medion 3.5" 500GB
   - USB 2.0 (USB 1.1 backward compatible)

* The symptoms
   - After plugging in a disk into any USB port, windows does not
     assign a drive letter
   - The windows event log records many entries with NTFS error 51
     while a disk is connected
   - When a disk is connected for the first time, windows says that
     it sees a new disk but then does nothing
   - When a disk is connected for the second time, widows says that
     the device is malfunctioning and classifies the disk as an
     unknown device; programs like Device Manager hang until the
     disk is unplugged
   - USB 2.0 memory sticks work just fine on both USB 1.1 and 2.0
     ports
   - Both harddisks work just fine on various other PCs

At first I thought some program was interfering, so I uninstalled
third party USB drivers, etc. No luck.

Then I tried installing a clean copy of Windows XP in a second
partion. Same symptoms. So I figured that Windows was not to blame,
directing my efforts towards hardware and BIOS.

The BIOS is up to date, so nothing here that I can do.

Last thing I tried was to clear the mainboard CMOS memory (remove
battery for a minute). No improvement.

So I am now completely lost and feeling clueless...

I am wondering what is causing this (BIOS bug causing hardware to
be initialized incorrectly?) and if there is anything that I can
do to fix this (other then recommend to buy a new PC).

Any pointers are greatly appreciated!

Regards,
-Roger

Any mapped network drives. They can sometimes hide a physical drive.

Can you see the drive using Computer Management?

Michael
www.cnwrecovery.com

 

[Rod Speed]

Roger Hünen wrote

I am trying to make an external harddrive work on a friends PC,
but I cannot get it to work. First some data:

* The PC
- Medion PC MT5 (MED MT 115) with MD3500 mainboard (2004)
- latest Award BIOS released by Medion for this system
- 4x onboard USB 1.1 (Intel ICH2 chipset)
- 4x USB 2.0 (PCI card with VIA 5 chipset)
- Windows XP Home SP3 fully patched

* The disk #1
- Toshiba 3.5" 1TB
- USB 2.0 (USB 1.1 backward compatible)

* The disk #2
- Medion 3.5" 500GB
- USB 2.0 (USB 1.1 backward compatible)

* The symptoms
- After plugging in a disk into any USB port, windows does not
assign a drive letter
- The windows event log records many entries with NTFS error 51
while a disk is connected

Can you post the exact error log entry for one of them ?

Nothing much shows up with google with how you describe it.

And what shows up in Disk Management drive wise ?

- When a disk is connected for the first time, windows says that
it sees a new disk but then does nothing
- When a disk is connected for the second time, widows says that
the device is malfunctioning and classifies the disk as an unknown device; programs like Device Manager hang until
the disk is unplugged

Thats a real worry if you get that effect with both drives and the clean XP install.

- USB 2.0 memory sticks work just fine on both USB 1.1 and 2.0 ports
- Both harddisks work just fine on various other PCs

Does any external USB hard drive ever work at all ?

At first I thought some program was interfering, so I uninstalled
third party USB drivers, etc. No luck.

Then I tried installing a clean copy of Windows XP in a second
partion. Same symptoms. So I figured that Windows was not to blame,
directing my efforts towards hardware and BIOS.

The BIOS is up to date, so nothing here that I can do.

Last thing I tried was to clear the mainboard CMOS memory (remove
battery for a minute). No improvement.

So I am now completely lost and feeling clueless...

I am wondering what is causing this (BIOS bug causing hardware to be initialized incorrectly?)

Never seen that.

What happens with a linux live CD, can you see the drive in that config ?

That would eliminate one obvious possibility that there is some
combination of chipset/external drive and XP thats the problem.

and if there is anything that I can do to fix this

I'd ask Medion about it.

 

[Roger Hünen]

Any mapped network drives. They can sometimes hide a physical drive.

Not the problem here.

Can you see the drive using Computer Management?

No.

Regards,
-Roger

 

[Roger Hünen]

Roger Hünen wrote
[snip]

Can you post the exact error log entry for one of them ?

Event ID: 51
Event Type: Warning
Event Source: Disk
Description: An error was detected on device \Device\Harddisk1\DR1
during a paging operation.

There is no pagefile on this drive, but I have seen this event type
before in similar cases when there are communiation issues with the
disk.

Nothing much shows up with google with how you describe it.

That is why I am asking here

And what shows up in Disk Management drive wise ?

The disk does not show up in Disk Management. It simply doesn't seem
to get this far.

Thats a real worry if you get that effect with both drives and the clean XP install.
Yup.


Does any external USB hard drive ever work at all ?

I have tried with 2 different external harddisks. Unfortunately I don't
have another one at hand for testing.

Never seen that.

Neither have I. This is totally weird.

What happens with a linux live CD, can you see the drive in that config ?

That would eliminate one obvious possibility that there is some
combination of chipset/external drive and XP thats the problem.

That is a very good suggestion. I will give it a try (takes a few days).

I'd ask Medion about it.

I did. They don't support those old systems anymore and suggest to
reinstall from the recovery media. Which is of course not going to
work.

Regards,
-Roger

 

[Rod Speed]

Roger Hünen wrote

Rod Speed wrote

Event ID: 51
Event Type: Warning
Event Source: Disk
Description: An error was detected on device \Device\Harddisk1\DR1 during a paging operation.

Yeah,. assumed it was that one, just wanted to check.

Basically that provides no useful information, you can
get that with a USB DVD drive that is working fine.
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/244780

There is no pagefile on this drive, but I have seen this event type before in similar cases when there are
communiation issues with the disk.

In this case it appears to be because they drive doesnt mount properly so it doesnt show up in Disk Management.

The disk does not show up in Disk Management. It simply doesn't seem to get this far.

Yeah, thats noit unexpected.

Yup.

Yeah, looking more and more like some quirk where XP doesnt like the
motherboard chipset and so doesnt mount any USB hard drive properly.

The obvious proof of that possibility is the linux live CD mentioned below.

I have tried with 2 different external harddisks. Unfortunately I don't have another one at hand for testing.

Yeah, but pretty conclusive with two very different ones, both with the same result.

Neither have I. This is totally weird.

Yeah, its either some problem that XP has with the USB chipset on
that motherboard, or its failed. Pity we dont know if it ever did work.

That is a very good suggestion. I will give it a try (takes a few days).

Its the only really useful thing to try now.

I did. They don't support those old systems anymore and suggest to
reinstall from the recovery media. Which is of course not going to work.

Not clear if they even bothered to check if its a known problem with that system.

Pity.

 

[Roger Hünen]

You didn't answer this one - but it is /definitely/ the next step to try.

I answered that I'd give it a try...

Download and burn something like Knoppix

Already done (Knoppix 6.7.1)

I have access to the PC again over the weekend. I will post the results.

Regards,
-Roger

 

[Roger Hünen]

Another thing to try from the CD is memtest. Memory problems can manifest
themselves in all sorts of weird ways, so it is good to eliminate them as
a possible cause.

Good point. Will test this too!

Regards,
-Roger

 

[Tom Del Rosso]

Good point. Will test this too!

If the RAM is bad, then Linux might work perfectly or it might have some
other problem.

 

[Roger Hünen]

Greetings!

I am trying to make an external harddrive work on a friends PC,
but I cannot get it to work. First some data:

* The PC
- Medion PC MT5 (MED MT 115) with MD3500 mainboard (2004)
- latest Award BIOS released by Medion for this system
- 4x onboard USB 1.1 (Intel ICH2 chipset)
- 4x USB 2.0 (PCI card with VIA 5 chipset)
- Windows XP Home SP3 fully patched

* The disk #1
- Toshiba 3.5" 1TB
- USB 2.0 (USB 1.1 backward compatible)

* The disk #2
- Medion 3.5" 500GB
- USB 2.0 (USB 1.1 backward compatible)

* The symptoms
- After plugging in a disk into any USB port, windows does not
assign a drive letter
- The windows event log records many entries with NTFS error 51
while a disk is connected
- When a disk is connected for the first time, windows says that
it sees a new disk but then does nothing
- When a disk is connected for the second time, widows says that
the device is malfunctioning and classifies the disk as an
unknown device; programs like Device Manager hang until the
disk is unplugged
- USB 2.0 memory sticks work just fine on both USB 1.1 and 2.0
ports
- Both harddisks work just fine on various other PCs

At first I thought some program was interfering, so I uninstalled
third party USB drivers, etc. No luck.

Then I tried installing a clean copy of Windows XP in a second
partion. Same symptoms. So I figured that Windows was not to blame,
directing my efforts towards hardware and BIOS.

The BIOS is up to date, so nothing here that I can do.

Following your recommendations, I got the following results:

* Test with a Linux LiveCD (Knoppix 6.7.1)
- Hard disk #2 (Medion) is recognized (though not consistently)
on both the USB 1.1 and USB 2.0 ports.
- Hard disk #1 (Toshiba) is seen briefly, but then drops back to
"unknown device".
==> Windows XP seems to be a bit more sensitive than Linux, but
both are experiencing problems.

* Check memory
- Memtest86+ v4.20 revealed no errors in 6 passes.
- The memory configuration appears to be a mix of a 256MB PC2100
module (factory installed) and a 512MB PC3200 module (expansion).
PC2100 module timings are used for both. I tried removing either
module: no change.
==> Memory looks OK to me.

Speccy v1.12 reported that the mainboard is an MS-6513 OEM board. MSI
made this board specifically for Medion, so no support from MSI. Forum
posts (mainly in German) reveal that the board has indeed the latest
BIOS (Award 6.00PG v1.59 2003/01/29).

Some forum post suggested that the BIOS lacks proper support for USB
2.0. Considering that USB 2.0 memory sticks work OK, I doubt if this
post makes sense. Unfortunately I don't have some really old USB 1.1
external hard disk at hand to test this theory...

Anyway, I have come to the end of my quest. Not quite satisfactory in
the end, but still a good learning experience

To those who responded and pointed me in valuable directions, I'd like
to say "thank you for your insights and for your valuable time"!

Regards,
-Roger

 

[Rod Speed]

Roger Hünen wrote

Roger Hünen wrote

Following your recommendations, I got the following results:

* Test with a Linux LiveCD (Knoppix 6.7.1)
- Hard disk #2 (Medion) is recognized (though not consistently)
on both the USB 1.1 and USB 2.0 ports.
- Hard disk #1 (Toshiba) is seen briefly, but then drops back to
"unknown device".
==> Windows XP seems to be a bit more sensitive than Linux, but
both are experiencing problems.

* Check memory
- Memtest86+ v4.20 revealed no errors in 6 passes.
- The memory configuration appears to be a mix of a 256MB PC2100
module (factory installed) and a 512MB PC3200 module (expansion).
PC2100 module timings are used for both. I tried removing either
module: no change.
==> Memory looks OK to me.

Speccy v1.12 reported that the mainboard is an MS-6513 OEM board. MSI
made this board specifically for Medion, so no support from MSI. Forum
posts (mainly in German) reveal that the board has indeed the latest
BIOS (Award 6.00PG v1.59 2003/01/29).

Some forum post suggested that the BIOS lacks proper support for USB
2.0. Considering that USB 2.0 memory sticks work OK, I doubt if this
post makes sense. Unfortunately I don't have some really old USB 1.1
external hard disk at hand to test this theory...

Anyway, I have come to the end of my quest. Not quite satisfactory in
the end, but still a good learning experience

To those who responded and pointed me in valuable directions, I'd like
to say "thank you for your insights and for your valuable time"!

Thanks for the washup, too rare IMO.

Looks very like the motherboard's USB support always did have some real quirks.

Surely you must be able to find some howling about the problem if it wont accept
any USB external hard drives for anyone ? But even if you do find that it is happy
with some external USB hard drives, that may not be that useful to the owner.

Personally I'd replace if it was mine and I needed the USB external hard drive support.

But I dont, I do have one older system that only has USB 1.1 and just move
what I needed to move to USB external hard drives via the lan using a PC
which does have USB 2 external hard drive support. That machine was the
PVR at one time but has now been replaced by a new PVR I assembled.

 

[Roger Hünen]

Thanks for the washup, too rare IMO.
Yup.

Looks very like the motherboard's USB support always did have some real quirks.
Agreed.

Surely you must be able to find some howling about the problem if it wont accept
any USB external hard drives for anyone ?

Agreed, but there is none! It looks like a board defect. Unfortunately warranty
has run out years ago...

But even if you do find that it is happy with some external USB hard drives,
that may not be that useful to the owner.

If it is not reliable, it is not useful for Jane and Joe User.

For me this is case closed now

Regards,
-Roger

 

[Arno]

On 2011/11/09 20:06, Roger H?nen wrote: [...]
Following your recommendations, I got the following results:

* Test with a Linux LiveCD (Knoppix 6.7.1)
- Hard disk #2 (Medion) is recognized (though not consistently)
on both the USB 1.1 and USB 2.0 ports.
- Hard disk #1 (Toshiba) is seen briefly, but then drops back to
"unknown device".
==> Windows XP seems to be a bit more sensitive than Linux, but
both are experiencing problems.

* Check memory
- Memtest86+ v4.20 revealed no errors in 6 passes.
- The memory configuration appears to be a mix of a 256MB PC2100
module (factory installed) and a 512MB PC3200 module (expansion).
PC2100 module timings are used for both. I tried removing either
module: no change.
==> Memory looks OK to me.

Speccy v1.12 reported that the mainboard is an MS-6513 OEM board. MSI
made this board specifically for Medion, so no support from MSI. Forum
posts (mainly in German) reveal that the board has indeed the latest
BIOS (Award 6.00PG v1.59 2003/01/29).

Some forum post suggested that the BIOS lacks proper support for USB
2.0. Considering that USB 2.0 memory sticks work OK, I doubt if this
post makes sense. Unfortunately I don't have some really old USB 1.1
external hard disk at hand to test this theory...

Anyway, I have come to the end of my quest. Not quite satisfactory in
the end, but still a good learning experience

To those who responded and pointed me in valuable directions, I'd like
to say "thank you for your insights and for your valuable time"!

Regards,
-Roger

This does not look like a BIOS problem at all, but rather a dying
chipset. I have seen USB ports going flaky with inadequately
cooled chipsets (ASUS trash) after 1-2 years. The OS then kicks
them when it cannot reactivate the device by resets.

Arno

 

[Roger Hünen]

This does not look like a BIOS problem at all, but rather a dying
chipset.

Possible. Considering that I could not find similar cases with the
same board on the net, a hardware defect is more likely than a BIOS
issue (especially if the latest version has already been installed).

I have seen USB ports going flaky with inadequately cooled
chipsets (ASUS trash) after 1-2 years. The OS then kicks them
when it cannot reactivate the device by resets.

Despite its age (2003) this PC has (due to circumstances) in fact
been used quite litte (though regularly). It probably has less than
200 usage hours. Would reseating CPU and/or chipset be an idea?

Regards,
-Roger

 

[Arno]

Possible. Considering that I could not find similar cases with the
same board on the net, a hardware defect is more likely than a BIOS
issue (especially if the latest version has already been installed).

Despite its age (2003) this PC has (due to circumstances) in fact
been used quite litte (though regularly). It probably has less than
200 usage hours. Would reseating CPU and/or chipset be an idea?

Not really. If it is however 8 years old with lillte usage, one
additional possibility is electrolythe capacitors gone bad.
This will increase noise in the power lines on the mainboard
and can have the observed effect as well.

In both case trying to fix this is really not worth
the effort or impossible in the first place.

Arno

 

[Rod Speed]

Roger Hünen wrote

Arno wrote

Possible. Considering that I could not find similar cases with the
same board on the net, a hardware defect is more likely than a BIOS
issue (especially if the latest version has already been installed).

Despite its age (2003) this PC has (due to circumstances) in fact
been used quite litte (though regularly). It probably has less than
200 usage hours. Would reseating CPU and/or chipset be an idea?

You do realise you can add a cheap USB2 card to the system dont you ?

 

[Roger Hünen]

Roger Hünen wrote

You do realise you can add a cheap USB2 card to the system dont you ?

I already did! And attaching an external harddisk to that card does
not work either... (see the original problem description)

Regards,
-Roger

 

[Rod Speed]

Roger Hünen wrote

Rod Speed wrote

I already did! And attaching an external harddisk to that card does not work either... (see the original problem
description)

OK, missed that.

Then it cant be a motherboard chipset faiure.

Its very unlikely to be a chipset failure on the addon
card and even if it is, its trivial to replace that card.

That certainly explains why you havent seen anyone else complain of the problem you are seeing.

 

[Rod Speed]

David Brown wrote

Tom Del Rosso wrote

Typically, Linux is more sensitive to RAM problems than Windows (at least, XP and earlier).

Thats just plain wrong.

Part of that is that older Windows makes very poor use of the ram in the system

Thats completely silly.

- it will happily put processes into swap even without all the ram having been used,

It only does that with stuff that isnt likely to
be used, to make starting that stuff later faster.

and limits the disk cache unnecessarily.

Even sillier.

So you might never see issues with the higher ram addresses in normal use.

Mindlessly silly.

Linux, on the other hand, always uses every byte it can get - anything spare is disk cache. (Newer windows versions
do that too.)

And you dont in fact see systems that will run XP and earlier fine, but not later versions of Win.

But it is certainly true that RAM problems can manifest themselves in different ways with different OS's - that's why
it is always worth
checking if you are getting weird or unexplained issues.

Nothing particularly weird about his problems, there's just a problem with the USB.