Express Recovery 2 - Gigabyte

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mickey Mouse
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Mickey Mouse

What am I doing wrong?
Purchased new system

4 gig ddr800 ram

EG43m-S2H mobo

300gig seagate HD

I'm having trouble with creating the Express Recovery2 backup.
I've partioned the hard drive to C: appx 480 gig (Primary) leaving the rest
as Unallocated.
The Unallocated space appx 19gig is much more than I really need for the
Express
recovery backup.
When I run Express Recovery 2 it tells me " NOT ENOUGH HHD FREE SPACE
FOR IMAGE BACKUP"
I've had similar trouble with this in the past with other system and know
I'm doing something wrong. Can anyone experienced with Express Recovery help
out?
P.s Before I have a breakdown!

Basically, for Express Recovery2.
1. Partition your hard drive leaving enough unallocated space usually about
10gig.
2. Load system and drivers
3. Install Express Recovery2 and created backup.
Simple aye, apparently not!

HELP!

Mickey
 
What am I doing wrong?
Purchased new system

4 gig ddr800 ram

EG43m-S2H mobo

300gig seagate HD

I'm having trouble with creating the Express Recovery2 backup.
I've partioned the hard drive to C: appx 480 gig (Primary)


You put a 480GB partition on a 300GB drive? How did you do that?

leaving the rest
as Unallocated.
The Unallocated space appx 19gig is much more than I really need for the
Express
recovery backup.
When I run Express Recovery 2 it tells me " NOT ENOUGH HHD FREE SPACE
FOR IMAGE BACKUP"


Whatever is unallocated is not available for backing up or for
anything else. You can only back up to a partition you've created.

Moreover, backing up to a second partition on your drive is the
*worst* possible form of backup. I don't recommend backup to a second
non-removable hard drive (and even worse is a second partition on your
only drive) because it leaves you susceptible to simultaneous loss of
the original and backup to many of the most common dangers: severe
power glitches, nearby lightning strikes, virus attacks, even theft of
the computer.

In my view, secure backup needs to be on removable media, and not kept
in the computer. For really secure backup (needed, for example, if the
life of your business depends on your data) you should have multiple
generations of backup, and at least one of those generations should be
stored off-site.

My computer isn't used for business, but my personal backup scheme
uses two identical removable hard drives, I alternate between the two,
and use Acronis True Image to make a complete copy of the primary
drive.
 
Nothing is going to happen until you partition the free space, using disk
management
BTW haveing a recovery partition on the same drive is no recovery plan, if
the drive fails so does your recovery
Also how do you create a 480gb partition on a 300gb seagate drive, is there
some new technology I'm unaware of?
 
Also how do you create a 480gb partition on a 300gb seagate drive, is there
some new technology I'm unaware of?

Ok you guys, stop trying to cheer me up!
Sorry, Typo.... It's a 500gig drive.

I understand it is prudent to not backup this way, but in this instance it
is necessary.
Nothing is going to happen until you partition the free space, using disk
management

It's not FREE space, it's Unallocated as it should be. Then used by Express
recovery to create it's
own backup partition.

I could could go to Acronis now but I don't want this to beat me.

Patitioning The hard drive to 480gig Primary leaving the rest Unallocated
doesn't seem to be correct.
I know I'm missing something but can't work out what.
Couldn't find a contact number for Gigabyte.

I believe it works this way.
Express Recovery2 see the unallocated space. It makes it own partition from
this, but only enough to save
the backup file leaving the rest of the unallocated space intact.
Next time you do an Express Recovery2 backup, if overwrites the last back
and if more space is required for
the next backup it gets it from the unsed unallocted space it left behind
before and adds it to it's own partition.

Gees, it can't be that hard. What am I missing?

Any exports out there? Opps, typo again, I means experts!

Mickey
 
Mickey Mouse said:
Yeah, see how frustrated I'm getting. It's a 500gb drive.


Mickey:
As Ken Blake responded, it's necessary to partition/format that
"unallocated" disk space. It's not clear that you have done this since you
refer only to the "unallocated" disk space that was left after you created
the 480 GB partition. Is it possible that you have not yet created &
formatted that second partition?
Anna
 
Anna said:
Mickey:
As Ken Blake responded, it's necessary to partition/format that
"unallocated" disk space. It's not clear that you have done this since you
refer only to the "unallocated" disk space that was left after you created
the 480 GB partition. Is it possible that you have not yet created &
formatted that second partition?
Anna


Mickey:
I just happened to talk with one of my former colleagues a few moments after
I sent the above post. He informed me that it's unnecessary to create &
format a partition out of the unallocated disk space; that the installation
of the ExpressRecovery2 utility apparently manages that undertaking.
Apparently a minimum of 10 GB of unallocated disk space is necessary and I
believe you indicated there was 20 GB of unallocated space.

Unfortunately I didn't have time to discuss your specific problem with him.
(Actually, *he* didn't have the time!). If I'm able to get further info that
may be of help to you re this issue I'll pass it on.
Anna
 
Hi Anna, thanks for the reply. I do appreciate you, Ken and the others for
the replies.
No I haven't partitioned the Unallocated space. My reasonong is this.. If I
format
the unallocated space, then it becomes a drive, in this case E: so I end up
with
C:,D:, & E: leaving no unallocated space for Xpress Recovery2 to use.

The gigabyte book says specifically.......
"Xpress Recovery2 will check the first physical drive for the operating
system. Xpress Recovery2
can only backup/restore the first physical hard drive that has the operating
system installed.

Xpress Recover2 will save the backup file at the end of the hard drive, MAKE
SURE TO LEAVE ENOUGH
UNALLOCATED SPACE IN ADVANCE (10gig or more recommended).

Can it be clearer than that? I know this is right as I have done it before
on another system twice. I had trouble then too,
but I had so much trouble I don't remember what I did.

I've tried this and Xpress recovery won't install and says "NOT ENOUGH HHD
FREE SIZE FOR IMAGE BACKUP" Error 400
C: Primary 341.80 gig D: Logical 97.65 gig & Unallocated
23.61gig
C: Primary 341.80 gig D: Free space 97.65 gig & Unallocated
23.61gig
C: Primary 341.80 gig Free space 97.65 gig & D: Primary
23.61gig
C: Primary 341.80 gig Unallocated 97.65 gig & D:Primary
23.61gig
C: Primary 341.80 gig Extended 97.65 gig & Unallocated
23.61gig

I've just now found how to email gigabyte and see what I get back.

Mickey
 
Thanks Anna, I'll repost if I get answer back from Gigabyte.
I'm suspecting now that this mobo is not compatible with
Xpress Recovery 2. Let u know.

Mickey
 
Mickey Mouse said:
Hi Anna, thanks for the reply. I do appreciate you, Ken and the others
for the replies.
No I haven't partitioned the Unallocated space. My reasonong is this.. If
I format
the unallocated space, then it becomes a drive, in this case E: so I end
up with
C:,D:, & E: leaving no unallocated space for Xpress Recovery2 to use.

The gigabyte book says specifically.......
"Xpress Recovery2 will check the first physical drive for the operating
system. Xpress Recovery2
can only backup/restore the first physical hard drive that has the
operating system installed.

Xpress Recover2 will save the backup file at the end of the hard drive,
MAKE SURE TO LEAVE ENOUGH
UNALLOCATED SPACE IN ADVANCE (10gig or more recommended).

Can it be clearer than that? I know this is right as I have done it before
on another system twice. I had trouble then too,
but I had so much trouble I don't remember what I did.

I've tried this and Xpress recovery won't install and says "NOT ENOUGH
HHD FREE SIZE FOR IMAGE BACKUP" Error 400
C: Primary 341.80 gig D: Logical 97.65 gig &
Unallocated 23.61gig
C: Primary 341.80 gig D: Free space 97.65 gig & Unallocated
23.61gig
C: Primary 341.80 gig Free space 97.65 gig & D: Primary
23.61gig
C: Primary 341.80 gig Unallocated 97.65 gig & D:Primary
23.61gig
C: Primary 341.80 gig Extended 97.65 gig &
Unallocated 23.61gig

I've just now found how to email gigabyte and see what I get back.

Mickey


Mickey:
Funny. I can't tell you how many Gigabyte boards I've worked with over the
years, yet I've never used (installed) that Xpress Recovery2 utility that
Gigabyte includes with their boards! I suppose it's because we (initially)
rarely set up the HDD with unallocated disk space. And we've been partial to
the Casper 5 disk-cloning program to create & maintain a comprehensive
backup system.

Anyway, I note from the info you provided above that you've created an
Extended partition so as to incorporate a Logical drive. I assume you have
your reason(s) for doing so rather than simply creating another Primary
partition. But I was just wondering whether that would have some effect on
the system's inability to install the XR2 utility in the unallocated disk
space. Logically there would not seem to be any bar to doing so since the
amount of unallocated disk space on the disk seems ample enough for the XR2
utility, but would it be practical (just as a test) to delete the
Extended-Logical drive partition and create that second partition as a
Primary partition? Naturally I'm assuming that you don't have any data on
the D: Logical drive, or if you do you could copy it to your C: partition or
some removable media.

It's just a "shot-in-the-dark" while you're awaiting a reply from Gigabyte.
Anna
 
Helo again Anna,
Yes, I've installed XR2 a number of times over the years and although it's
always
given me trouble installing I usually succeed in the end. However, when you
have partitioned correctly and installed XR2
there is no learning curve. XR2 however appears to be unique to the
gigabyte mobos. Now though it's appears not be compatitble to all GByte
mobo's, hope I'm wrong there. XR2 I think has always been apart of the
chipset driver cd to be installed seperately. Even if not installed, it's
an F9 function option when the pc is booting. Many knowledgable people seem
to condenm this facility as you have probably gathered from some responses
that I have been given. I know using XR2
may have it's ups and/or downsides, but I find it at times a godsend
especially if your like me and always tinkering with new software with the
eventual probability that I'm going to install something I shouldn't ending
up with some kind conflict messing up my whole system. When my system
starts misbehaving badly I merely decide to reinstall my system and software
hitting F9 waiting an hour, while having a cuppa and it's done. No recovery
disks to find and install. My other HP machine has a similar system,
however it only seems to reinstall the system back to it's original bought
state which unfortunately also includes all that budled trial software. In
short XR2 is ideal for the novice not wishing to learn Acronis or the
suchlike.
And to answer one of your questions, yes I also tried Primary, Primay,
Unallocated, still to no avail.
Frankly, I've got lots of questions as to the correct way to partition a HD.
For example, a single HHD partitioned to C: and D:
Should it be partitioned to C: Primary D: Extended or C: Primary D: Primary.
I understand why C: is Primary (system), but why D: Primary,why not
extended. You asked why, I must have my reasons. Well my only reason is it
works that way as it does as a Primary. You see, I don't know why but I'd
like to know. I have many similar questions but one is reluctant at times
to ask on the newsgroups for fear of sounding foolish although the only
foolish question is the one you don't ask I suppose.
Get back to you soon.

Mickey
P.s Another free utility I wouldn't be without is 'ERUNT', google it.
 
Mickey Mouse said:
Helo again Anna,
Yes, I've installed XR2 a number of times over the years and although it's
always
given me trouble installing I usually succeed in the end. However, when
you have partitioned correctly and installed XR2
there is no learning curve. XR2 however appears to be unique to the
gigabyte mobos. Now though it's appears not be compatitble to all GByte
mobo's, hope I'm wrong there. XR2 I think has always been apart of the
chipset driver cd to be installed seperately. Even if not installed, it's
an F9 function option when the pc is booting. Many knowledgable people
seem to condenm this facility as you have probably gathered from some
responses that I have been given. I know using XR2
may have it's ups and/or downsides, but I find it at times a godsend
especially if your like me and always tinkering with new software with the
eventual probability that I'm going to install something I shouldn't
ending up with some kind conflict messing up my whole system. When my
system starts misbehaving badly I merely decide to reinstall my system and
software hitting F9 waiting an hour, while having a cuppa and it's done.
No recovery disks to find and install. My other HP machine has a similar
system, however it only seems to reinstall the system back to it's
original bought state which unfortunately also includes all that budled
trial software. In short XR2 is ideal for the novice not wishing to learn
Acronis or the suchlike.
And to answer one of your questions, yes I also tried Primary, Primay,
Unallocated, still to no avail.
Frankly, I've got lots of questions as to the correct way to partition a
HD. For example, a single HHD partitioned to C: and D:
Should it be partitioned to C: Primary D: Extended or C: Primary D:
Primary. I understand why C: is Primary (system), but why D: Primary,why
not
extended. You asked why, I must have my reasons. Well my only reason is
it works that way as it does as a Primary. You see, I don't know why but
I'd like to know. I have many similar questions but one is reluctant at
times to ask on the newsgroups for fear of sounding foolish although the
only foolish question is the one you don't ask I suppose.
Get back to you soon.

Mickey
P.s Another free utility I wouldn't be without is 'ERUNT', google it.


Mickey:
I should say at the outset that by & large I'm not generally enamored of
multi-partitioning a HDD when using a modern OS, i.e., post-Win9x/Me, such
as WinXP. It seems to me that one can effectively organize his/her HDD by
using folders to segregate this or that major program or division of work. I
do not feel that it's necessary nor desirable to multi-partition one's HDD
unless one has some very special need for doing so such as installing two
operating systems on one physical HDD (although let me be quick to add that
except where there is no other recourse left open to the user, i.e., he or
she is unable or unwilling to use separate hard drives, I'm not particularly
enthusiastic about installing multiple operating systems on a single HDD.)

The great advantage of having a single partition per physical HDD is its
simplicity. You never encounter the situation where the free space is in the
"wrong" partition nor is there ever a need to adjust partition size because
one's later need for more (or less) disk space has changed.

In my view there's really no advantage, security or performance, inherent in
multi-partitioning one's HDD. You can, of course, organize your HDD any way
you want, but you could just as easily have a single place called a "folder"
as have a single place called a "partition" in which to store your programs
& data. When all is said & done these multi-partitioning schemes have as
their basic objective a kind of assumed safety net. For the most part
there's the notion that separating the OS from programs & applications as
well as user-created data affords a significantly greater degree of security
in the event of some catastrophic event affecting the PC. In most cases,
based on my experience, it's a false sense of security.

But I really do not wish to enter into a discussion or argument re the pros
& cons of multi-partitioning. If one is comfortable with multi-partitioning
his or her HDD and feels he or she is deriving some benefit from so doing -
so be it.

In any event, with respect to the Primary/Extended partition issue, our SOP
has been where the HDD will contain no more than four partitions we set up
each of those partitions as Primary. If the user desires more than four
partitions (or believes at some later date he or she will need more than
four partitions), then we'll generally create three Primary partitions with
the fourth one an Extended partition so as to incorporate Logical drives
within the Extended partition (as you apparently did with your second
partition). It's really not significant in your case or for that matter in
most cases, since I assume you will be using that second (Logical drive)
partition as a repository for data and not intended as a bootable partition
(in which case you would need to create a Primary partition).

In conclusion...

I really think you should give serious consideration to establishing &
maintaining a comprehensive backup system - one that will back up the
*entire* contents of your day-to-day working HDD, including your OS, all
programs & applications, and of course your personal data. A backup system
which will utilize another HDD (internal or external) as the recipient of
the backed-up contents of the "source" HDD. So that if & when the time comes
when your system becomes dysfunctional because of a defective HDD or
unbootable because of a corrupted OS, you will have the wherewithal to
easily and rather quickly restore the system to a bootable, functional state
with *all* your data intact.

You can achieve this by using a disk-cloning or disk-imaging program as the
foundation of such a backup program.

I'm sure you've come across many posts on this subject with each poster
indicating his or her favorite program. Mine happens to be the Casper 5
program. If you want more info on this I'll be glad to post such.

In any event, do keep us posted re the Xpress Recovery2 program, especially
any communication you receive from Gigabyte. Coincidentally I'll be shortly
working on a system with a new Gigabyte motherboard - their GA-EP45-UD3R
model. So I'll "play around" with the XR2 program if I get a chance.
Anna
 
Hey Conroe,
Sorry to hear that. I've emailed Gigabyte and just got a reply. Guess
what, they linked me back to the same instructions as come in the mobo book.
So, I've just emailed them back and asked the same question a different way.
I hope when/if they reply things may get a bit clearer.

This is what was in my second email.

"Thanks for the reply but problem is not solved. I have 500gb HD.
C:primary partition (system) D: primary partition and 20gb unallocated.
Xpress Recovery2 will not install and
says Not Enough Free HDD space for backup and Error code 400.
What is Error Code 400 and what am I doing wrong, Ive been trying for days."

Conroe, I'm not going to let this rest although some like to knock XR2 out
of hand.
I've had it going on a couple of systems over the years and each time it
initially gave me hassles (mainly because of my stmbling in the dark), so
much so that when I eventualy got it right I couldn't remember how I did it.
For just a backup of an freshly installed system with drivers and
applications it is truely great and time saving. XR2 is not the way to go
though if your looking for incremental backups with all the gizmo settings.
Stay Tuned I'll post any reply I get from them.

Regards,
Mickey
P.s Their reply also said that XR2 was compatible with my Mobo.
(GA-EG43M-S2H Rev1.1)
 
Conroe, what steps if any have you taken to resolve this issue?
I have just written again to Gigabyte a very long email.
If sucesscful, they will supply me with very detail information.
Lets see.
 
There are numerous posts on problems with this recovery software, you might
want t post to a more suitable none MS group, or even Gigabyte forums
PS I've never had any problems using Acronis
 
thats what I thought

Cody Jarrett said:
The fact that the OP admits to having "terrible experiences" with
Ghost and True Image speaks volumes.

I think it's an example of PEBKAC.
 
A 1TB mass storage drive? You gotta be kidding, or crazy.
What if your 1TB fails? Mass storage? Mass loss would be a better
description.

Is your C: Drive Disk1?
It appears you have 3 drives, which is disk 0, disk 1 and disk 2?

Mickey
 
toomanytimezones said:
I'm having a similar problem, but perhaps there's one more clue here.

I want to use XPressRecovery2 for backup for the same reason as you do.
Once I get a stable system, I want to be able to image it and recover
it if I add any unstable software later. I believe that Dell does this
on their computers: they hold back some of the hard drive space for an
image so that they can just reset everything back to its original state
with a simple command.

Anyway, I decided to use this built-in Gigabyte method after having
terrible experiences with Norton Ghost and Acronis. I have a Gigabyte
GA-EX38-DQ6 motherboard and "normally", I have a 320GB boot drive (C:),
(2) 500GB in a RAID0 for Video Editing (D:), and a 1 TB for mass storage
(E:).

I formatted about 160GB of the boot drive for the primary bootable
partition and installed my operating system and a number of key
programs. As you pointed out, you aren't supposed to create any other
partitions since XPressRecovery2 handles all of that for you with the
remaining 160GB unallocated space. My D: and E: drives were fully
formatted as 1 large partition each.

However, when I tried to start XPressRecovery2, it would constantly say
that I didn't have any room for the image. After reading the manual
some more, I was concerned that XPressRecovery2 was looking at one of
the other drives first and seeing no unallocated space. Per the manual
"XPressRecovery2 will check the first physical hard drive for the
operating system"....the first physical hard drive is taken in the
following order: the 1st PATA connector, the 2nd PATA connector, the
1st SATA connector, the 2nd SATA connector and so forth. I thought I
had my boot drive connected to the 1st SATA connector, but perhaps I
screwed up.

So I disconnected my other hard drives and rebooted and now
XPressRecovery2 started with no problem and I was able to image my drive
successfully. Checking it using Disk Management, I could see that
XPressRecovery2 had grabbed about 50GB of my unallocated space for the
image. So far, so good. I re-connected my other hard drives and
everything has been working fine.

So now, after installing a number of other programs, the system still
seems to be stable. So I decided to start up XPressRecovery2, remove
the existing backup (which should free up the original full 160GB
unallocated space), and re-image the boot drive again. Unfortunately,
I'm getting the original message again. It doesn't see the existing
image (according to it, there's nothing to remove), and says that the
HDD is full and there's no room to backup the drive.

So now I'm wondering whether I have to disconnect my other drives
again.....

What a pain!


toomanytimezones said:
All:
- Of course it's very possible that it's user error.....I just can't
seem to get it to work by following the instructions in the Gigabyte
manual....but I'll keep trying (and keep reading) with whatever help you
can offer....and I'll be sure to give Acronis another look if that's
what you recommend. Thanks.

Mickey:
- I thought you were having a similar problem but the thread went
quiet for a few weeks. Did you ever get an answer?
- Regarding the drive sizes, I've got ~2TB of offline storage for
backup of the key video files. These three drives are primarily for
work.
- In disk management, C is labeled disk0, D is disk2 and E is disk 1.
I'm using the Gigabyte SATE RAID controller, not the Intel controller.
--
toomanytimezones
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toomany...
You may want to take a look at a couple of my posts dtd 2/6 & 2/7 to this
newsgroup re the Xpress Recovery2 program. See..."Re: Xpress Recovery2 -The
Saga nearly ended!" (no quotes).

I can't address your initial problem with the XR2 program re the program's
message "that I didn't have any room for the image." I suppose all-in-all it
would have been best to disconnect your other HDDs from the system while
trying to install the program on your boot volume. Possibly the RAID
configuration played a role in this problem arising.

I suspect the current problem you're experiencing re the program's failure
to detect the existing image and then remove it may also be related to the
above. Did you try disconnecting your other HDDs as you did originally when
installing the program?

In any event - whether or not you resolve the present problem with the XR2
program - let me more-or-less briefly reiterate my 2/6 & 2/7 comments re
this program...

Bluntly speaking, I think this program is a sad excuse as a comprehensive
backup program. You sound like a knowledgeable & sophisticated PC user so I
can't imagine your wanting to use this type of program on a routine basis to
establish & maintain a comprehensive backup system for your PC. In my view
the program has so many negatives (see my comments of 2/6 & 2/7) as a backup
program that it's simply not worth installing, let using.

I note that you have indicated you had problems with the Norton Ghost and
Acronis (True Image?) programs. We long ago gave up using Symantec's Norton
Ghost program after having used the Ghost 2003 version for many years. The
later versions beginning with v9 were (by & large) unhappy experiences for
us in an XP environment. (Although I have to quickly add that I haven't
worked with Ghost's most recent version(s). Apparently many users view them
quite favorably.)

ATI is a decent program having both disk-cloning & disk-imaging
capabilities. You've probably noticed it gets consistently fine reviews from
many posters to this and related newsgroups. Obviously I can't speak to the
problems you were having with it.

The comprehensive backup program we strongly recommend for most PC users is
the Casper 5 program. It's a disk-cloning program (it doesn't have
disk-imaging capability). It's extremely simple to use (virtually no
"learning curve"), quite effective, and very quick in its backup operations
when the program is used on a frequent basis (as any backup program
should!).
Anna
 
message... (SNIP)
I have a Gigabyte GA-EX38-DQ6 motherboard...
(SNIP)


toomany...
Just an addendum to my previous post...

I've nearly certain the accessories included with your Gigabyte motherboard
(assuming you purchased a retail, boxed version of the board) was an eSATA
(backplane) bracket together with an accompanying eSATA data cable.

You can use these devices to good advantage in setting up a comprehensive
backup system by easily creating SATA-to-SATA connectivity between an
external SATA HDD enclosure and your desktop machine.

You might want to consider a disk-cloning program such as the one I
recommended in my previous post - the Casper 5 program - and use that
program to routinely clone the contents of one or more of your internal
HDDs - especially of course your boot volume) to an external SATA HDD that's
connected to your system via the eSATA port on your eSATA bracket.

There are significant advantages to this hardware configuration...

1. Because you're able to achieve SATA-to-SATA connectivity, the system
treats the external SATA HDD as an *internal* SATA HDD. Thus the external
SATA HDD containing the cloned contents of your internal HDD is *bootable*
and completely functional in an identical way to your *internally-connected*
HDD. So you have what amounts to a byte-for-byte copy of your day-to-day
working HDD that's completely bootable & functional. And depending upon the
size of the data contents of your other internal HDDs and the disk-size of
the external SATA HDD, you may be able to clone the contents of one or more
of those internal HDDs as well.

2. With SATA-to-SATA connectivity you achieve a comparable data transfer
rate similar to your internal SATA HDDs. And usually significantly faster
than when using a USB external HDD as the "destination" drive, i.e., the
recipient of the clone.

3. When the SATA external HDD enclosure is not in use it can be disconnected
from the system just like a USBEHD, thus achieving another security
advantage.

Naturally if you go this route added expenses will be involved re the
purchase of a SATA external enclosure and its HDD together with the
disk-cloning program.

As I previously indicated my personal preference is the Casper 5
disk-cloning program. (It does *not* have disk-imaging capability). It's
simple to use, very effective, and extremely fast in backing-up (cloning)
one's HDD when the program is used on a routine frequent basis. There's a
trial version (slightly crippled) available at...
http://www.fssdev.com/trial.
Anna
 
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