Don't buy HP Printers

[Prime]

Evidence is mounting that HP senior management and board of directors was
shamelessly unethical in the past few years.

They spied on reporters and obtained their personal phone records.

They spied on other board members.

They spied on their employees' personal lives.

They even spied on their former CEO, Carly Fiorina.


See links:

http://news.com.com/HP+spying+more+elaborate+than+reported/2100-1014_3-
6116557.html?tag=nefd.top
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,127179-page,1-c,legalissues/article.html
http://www.moneyweb.co.za/shares/international_news/178884.htm
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20060918032302229
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20060919011940922

Let's not support a company with ethics like this. Let's hope we can hurt
them in the pocketbook. Make a statement. And don't buy their ink, either.

Prime

 

[Richard Steinfeld]

Evidence is mounting that HP senior management and board of directors was
shamelessly unethical in the past few years.

They spied on reporters and obtained their personal phone records.

They spied on other board members.

They spied on their employees' personal lives.

They even spied on their former CEO, Carly Fiorina.
......

Let's not support a company with ethics like this. Let's hope we can hurt
them in the pocketbook. Make a statement. And don't buy their ink, either.

Prime

Actually, from where I'm sitting, the plot is pretty thick. We've seen a
lot of press about this lately, but I haven't seen much in the way of
particulars about who was spying on whom. Most of the stories have
written it up as "Hewlett-Packard spied..."

What the f***? I mean, people spy on each other; a "company" doesn't spy
on itself. Du-uuu-uuu! Man, what passes for juournalism in this republic!

And who was Carly checking out?
Last time I looked, the California AG was checking it out in a similar
way that the NY AG was going after the Wall Street robbers. I don't
think that the feds will get involved: this gang of jackals is in bed
with the predators.

Now, about the merchandise: HP has made all different kinds of printers
during the years, at different price points, and with different business
models. Some have been really excellent. A few have been junk. Some have
honestly-priced supplies; others treat the customer contemptuously and
rip him off: complicated.

At this point in time, I'm almost too cautious to buy _anyone's_ new
printer. We're confronted with nasties like chipped cartridges,
consumables lawsuits, illegal restraint of trade, products absurdly
restricted so they won't work with ink purchased on a different continent.

It makes sense to me to buy a used printer, and used HPs are appealing
to me more and more. So does the idea of filling my own cartridges. The
older printers seem much easier and cost-effective to feed. Perhaps if I
refill my own HP cartridges, my inkjet printing will approach the low
cost of running my Okidata LED ("laser") printer.

I'm pretty happy with my older, slower HP inkjet machines. They're fun
to me.

Richard

 

[TJ]

Actually, from where I'm sitting, the plot is pretty thick. We've seen a
lot of press about this lately, but I haven't seen much in the way of
particulars about who was spying on whom. Most of the stories have
written it up as "Hewlett-Packard spied..."

What the f***? I mean, people spy on each other; a "company" doesn't spy
on itself. Du-uuu-uuu! Man, what passes for juournalism in this republic!

And who was Carly checking out?
Last time I looked, the California AG was checking it out in a similar
way that the NY AG was going after the Wall Street robbers. I don't
think that the feds will get involved: this gang of jackals is in bed
with the predators.

Now, about the merchandise: HP has made all different kinds of printers
during the years, at different price points, and with different business
models. Some have been really excellent. A few have been junk. Some have
honestly-priced supplies; others treat the customer contemptuously and
rip him off: complicated.

At this point in time, I'm almost too cautious to buy _anyone's_ new
printer. We're confronted with nasties like chipped cartridges,
consumables lawsuits, illegal restraint of trade, products absurdly
restricted so they won't work with ink purchased on a different continent.

It makes sense to me to buy a used printer, and used HPs are appealing
to me more and more. So does the idea of filling my own cartridges. The
older printers seem much easier and cost-effective to feed. Perhaps if I
refill my own HP cartridges, my inkjet printing will approach the low
cost of running my Okidata LED ("laser") printer.

I'm pretty happy with my older, slower HP inkjet machines. They're fun
to me.

Richard

Great idea, Richard! You buy a used printer, and HP doesn't see any of
the money. Refill your own carts and buy replacements when you need them
that have been refilled once, and again HP doesn't see any of your
money. Of course the troll will tell you that you'll wind up with a
someone else's castoff junk, but I subscribe to the theory that one
man's junk is another man's treasure.

My first printer was my last new printer, and was purchased in 1985. It
WAS a piece of junk, even by the standards of the day, but it was all I
could afford and still have something that would work with my Atari
8-bit computer. All of the used printers I have purchased over the years
have worked better than that original "new" printer, at a small fraction
of the cost. Only one of them, an HP Deskjet 672C, was replaced because
it failed as a result of use. Another, an Epson LX800 dot-matrix model,
succumbed to a lightning strike. The only reason I replaced the rest was
that I stumbled upon one that was newer and more capable than the last.

Good used printers are easy to find, as those who subscribe to the
Measekite Theory of Ink discover that they can buy a new printer for the
cost of a set of OEM ink carts. They put a perfectly good used printer
up for sale for a few bucks, thinking that the poor shmoe who gets it
doesn't know what he's getting himself into. HA! The REAL shmoe is the
guy who sold the printer, only to buy one that's even MORE expensive to
feed than the last.

TJ

 

[Edwin Pawlowski]

They put a perfectly good used printer up for sale for a few bucks,
thinking that the poor shmoe who gets it doesn't know what he's getting
himself into. HA! The REAL shmoe is the guy who sold the printer, only to
buy one that's even MORE expensive to feed than the last.

TJ

None of this matters as we are now in a paperless society. We no longer
need or use printers and paper. Please, take the time to read the
newsreleases from 15 years ago about this and start co-operating.

There always has to be a couple of hold-outs.

 

[measekite]

Great idea, Richard! You buy a used printer, and HP doesn't see any of
the money. Refill your own carts and buy replacements when you need
them that have been refilled once, and again HP doesn't see any of
your money. Of course the troll will tell you that you'll wind up with
a someone else's castoff junk, but I subscribe to the theory that one
man's junk is another man's treasure.

my god this must be the saltine warrior

My first printer was my last new printer, and was purchased in 1985.
It WAS a piece of junk, even by the standards of the day, but it was
all I could afford and still have something that would work with my
Atari 8-bit computer.

you must be either a kid liar or some unsuccessful farmer liveing in the
greater syracuse area. you probably buy a used snow shovel also.

All of the used printers I have purchased over the years have worked
better than that original "new" printer

ha ha something used cannot work better than something new. also you
are not getting the performance out of it. nor do you have a true hp
printer as designed.

, at a small fraction of the cost. Only one of them, an HP Deskjet 672C,

that was garbage when it was new. so was the 500 series. the quality
was bad even when it was new. HP printers in general had paper feed
problems until the 900 series was released. it may not have been with
all of them but many. the 900 series is great. i do not know how the
business officejets (inkjets etc) are today but i would consider one if
i needed that function. but they were the best of its time.

was replaced because it failed as a result of use. Another, an Epson
LX800 dot-matrix model, succumbed to a lightning strike. The only
reason I replaced the rest was that I stumbled upon one that was newer
and more capable than the last.

Good used printers are easy to find, as those who subscribe to the
Measekite Theory of Ink discover that they can buy a new printer for
the cost of a set of OEM ink carts. They put a perfectly good used
printer up for sale for a few bucks, thinking that the poor shmoe

mirror mirror on da wall

who gets it doesn't know what he's getting himself into. HA! The REAL
shmoe is the guy who sold the printer, only to buy one that's even
MORE expensive to feed than the last.

the guy who bought the new printer may have gotton new functions and
quality he wanted. i still have my hp printer and use it for the reason
i bought it. fast fantastic draft quality with full auto duplexing. i
bought the Canon because it was better at printing photos, had better
paper handling with dual paper feeds, has auto duplex for an occassional
business document, is made available to others on the network (i do not
want to network the HP) and is more economical using OEM ink plus it has
individual ink tanks. I did not change to the new one since right now I
do not see any advantage. My current inks have not faded. But I may
purchase a wide format printer and still would keep the ones I have.

there is not reason to give any money to buy a used printer, especially
one with a non cartridge integreated printhead, when a good new printer
can be had for $20.00 less than a set of ink carts. you might as well
get all of the advancements in technology.

 

[measekite]

None of this matters as we are now in a paperless society.

Oh Yeah that is why were are selling more paper and ink now than ever
before.

 

[Mickey]

Evidence is mounting that HP senior management and board of directors was
shamelessly unethical in the past few years.

They spied on reporters and obtained their personal phone records.

They spied on other board members.

They spied on their employees' personal lives.

They even spied on their former CEO, Carly Fiorina.


See links:

http://news.com.com/HP+spying+more+elaborate+than+reported/2100-1014_3-
6116557.html?tag=nefd.top
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,127179-page,1-c,legalissues/article.html
http://www.moneyweb.co.za/shares/international_news/178884.htm
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20060918032302229
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20060919011940922

Let's not support a company with ethics like this. Let's hope we can hurt
them in the pocketbook. Make a statement. And don't buy their ink, either.

Prime

Lets see, the chairman of the board suspected there was
someone who had inside information, i.e. company secrets,
that was passing the information to outside parties. The
CoB took it upon themselves to do some investigation to find
the source of the leak. The leaker was found and their name
was reveled to the others on the board.

Industrial espionage is serious business and I have no
problem with Co's that take it seriously and take what ever
measures necessary to find the source and expose it.

As for Carly, for all the damage she did to the company
during her time at HP, I see no reason why she should be
excluded from the investigation.

The board of directors are typically not company employees
in the regular sense. They receive compensation for siting
on the board and offering advise but otherwise not involved
with Co business.

This investigation was not Co sponsored or approved of. The
chairman has resigned.

For this you want to punish the whole company. Shee!

Mickey

 

[Roy G]

Evidence is mounting that HP senior management and board of directors was
shamelessly unethical in the past few years.

"Don't buy HP Printers", because, he says HP are not nice people.

Epson are not nice people either, none of the big mutinationals are nice
people, they would not be big if they were.

So if you apply his reasoning you won't buy anything, which was not made by
Fred down the Road in his Shed.

That is probably a good way to do business, but remember Hoss the local
builder, who can't make a straight line out of a pile of bricks.

 

[Michael Johnson, PE]

<snip>

At this point in time, I'm almost too cautious to buy _anyone's_ new
printer. We're confronted with nasties like chipped cartridges,
consumables lawsuits, illegal restraint of trade, products absurdly
restricted so they won't work with ink purchased on a different continent.

It makes sense to me to buy a used printer, and used HPs are appealing
to me more and more. So does the idea of filling my own cartridges. The
older printers seem much easier and cost-effective to feed. Perhaps if I
refill my own HP cartridges, my inkjet printing will approach the low
cost of running my Okidata LED ("laser") printer.

I'm pretty happy with my older, slower HP inkjet machines. They're fun
to me.

I have decided that I will not buy any inkjet printer that all but
requires the use of OEM consumables. I plan to use the Canon
non-chipped printers we have until the proverbial wheels fall off them
and, if one goes belly up, search ebay to find a suitable non-chipped
replacement.

 

[measekite]

"Don't buy HP Printers", because, he says HP are not nice people.

Epson are not nice people either, none of the big mutinationals are nice
people, they would not be big if they were.

So if you apply his reasoning you won't buy anything, which was not made by
Fred down the Road in his Shed.

That is probably a good way to do business, but remember Hoss the local
builder, who can't make a straight line out of a pile of bricks.

he must be a relabeler

 

[measekite]

I have decided that I will not buy any inkjet printer that all but
requires the use of OEM consumables.

thats great. i think you can get some feathers at the local bird sanctuary

I plan to use the Canon non-chipped printers we have until the
proverbial wheels fall off them and, if one goes belly up, search ebay
to find a suitable non-chipped replacement.

i will sell you mine for $1,000,000,000 in advance

 

[Prime]

Lets see, the chairman of the board suspected there was
someone who had inside information, i.e. company secrets,
that was passing the information to outside parties. The
CoB took it upon themselves to do some investigation to find
the source of the leak. The leaker was found and their name
was reveled to the others on the board.

Industrial espionage is serious business and I have no
problem with Co's that take it seriously and take what ever
measures necessary to find the source and expose it.

And you think it's ok to use illegal tactics to spy on reporters?
Even if it were legal, think of the PR ramifications. The Board and
senior management ought to change if they did this knowingly. I know
there are enough ethical companies around without having to patronize
another bad one.

As for Carly, for all the damage she did to the company
during her time at HP, I see no reason why she should be
excluded from the investigation.
Agreed.
The board of directors are typically not company employees
in the regular sense. They receive compensation for siting
on the board and offering advise but otherwise not involved
with Co business.

They are paid to make sure the company's best interests are looked after.
Endangering a company's reputation with illegal activities is failing in
their fiduciary responsibility.

This investigation was not Co sponsored or approved of. The
chairman has resigned.

Bullshit. The board IS the heart of the company! First you say they
aren't part of the company (like how can a BOD of a company NOT be part
of the company?). Then you suggest it's OK now because somebody who's not
part of the company has resigned. Sounds like you just want this to be
easy and go away.

For this you want to punish the whole company. Shee!

Absolutely.

Prime

 

[Prime]

"Don't buy HP Printers", because, he says HP are not nice people.

Because the company ethics appears to be to sponsor, condone, and then
cover up illegal activities. This has nothing to do with nice.

Epson are not nice people either, none of the big mutinationals are
nice people, they would not be big if they were.

If they are shown to engage in illegal activities then they should suffer
consequences.

So if you apply his reasoning you won't buy anything, which was not
made by Fred down the Road in his Shed.

You're stretching way beyond the original message. Nice try.

That is probably a good way to do business, but remember Hoss the
local builder, who can't make a straight line out of a pile of bricks.
Do you watch Bonanza?

Prime

 

[Prime]

I have decided that I will not buy any inkjet printer that all but
requires the use of OEM consumables. I plan to use the Canon
non-chipped printers we have until the proverbial wheels fall off them
and, if one goes belly up, search ebay to find a suitable non-chipped
replacement.

I actually rushed out to buy one of the last MP780s (same as IP4000 with
multifunction) because I refused to buy the new "protected" cartridge
printers from Canon. I'll keep fixing it as long as necessary, because
the money I save on ink will pay for a lot of repairs.

Prime

 

[TJ]

my god this must be the saltine warrior

Amazing the tidbit you can pick up on Wikipedia, isn't it. Too bad
nobody else will get the reference without some research.

you must be either a kid liar or some unsuccessful farmer liveing in the
greater syracuse area. you probably buy a used snow shovel also.

Interesting conclusion. Actually, I'm the third generation of my family
to own and operate this farm. If staying in operation for 60 years
without a loss is lack of success, then we're guilty, I guess. And I
don't use a snow shovel much. I use the snowplow my father built 40
years ago, the one that mounts on my grandfather's 1952 Case SC tractor.
(A collectible.) Just two of the pieces of equipment we have that have
paid for themselves over and over.

ha ha something used cannot work better than something new. also you
are not getting the performance out of it. nor do you have a true hp
printer as designed.

Balderdash! A well-designed piece of used equipment in good repair will
almost always outperform a piece of new equipment that was poorly
designed. My original printer was extremely slow and limited (text only,
one size, no bold or italics, no graphics), but it did work. It was new
when I bought it. My next printer was purchased used, and about the same
age as my first, but it was faster and produced better quality text and
limited graphics. It was better than the new one, even though it was
used. Get the idea now?

that was garbage when it was new. so was the 500 series. the quality
was bad even when it was new. HP printers in general had paper feed
problems until the 900 series was released. it may not have been with
all of them but many. the 900 series is great. i do not know how the
business officejets (inkjets etc) are today but i would consider one if
i needed that function. but they were the best of its time.


mirror mirror on da wall



the guy who bought the new printer may have gotton new functions and
quality he wanted. i still have my hp printer and use it for the reason
i bought it. fast fantastic draft quality with full auto duplexing. i
bought the Canon because it was better at printing photos, had better
paper handling with dual paper feeds, has auto duplex for an occassional
business document, is made available to others on the network (i do not
want to network the HP) and is more economical using OEM ink plus it has
individual ink tanks. I did not change to the new one since right now I
do not see any advantage. My current inks have not faded. But I may
purchase a wide format printer and still would keep the ones I have.

there is not reason to give any money to buy a used printer, especially
one with a non cartridge integreated printhead, when a good new printer
can be had for $20.00 less than a set of ink carts. you might as well
get all of the advancements in technology.

Hey, your printer does what you want, mine does what I want. You don't
want to refill, I don't want to pay outrageous prices when it's not
necessary. You're afraid of a little risk, I'm not. We're both happy. So
what's your problem?

TJ

 

[DK]

Evidence is mounting that HP senior management and board of directors was
shamelessly unethical in the past few years.

You can safely assume the same for well over 90% of the big corporations!

 

[Michael Johnson, PE]

I actually rushed out to buy one of the last MP780s (same as IP4000 with
multifunction) because I refused to buy the new "protected" cartridge
printers from Canon. I'll keep fixing it as long as necessary, because
the money I save on ink will pay for a lot of repairs.

We have the MP780, iP4000, i960 and, Canon's large format work horse,
the N2000 which are all non-chipped printers. All of them use
compatible ink without any more problems than one would find using OEM
ink. I bought spare print heads and ink absorbing pads for the MP780
and iP4000 printers in anticipation of any future problems. I plan to
have them all around for a very long time.

I think someone will eventually challenge the OEM guys on requiring use
of only OEM sold consumables in a similar manner the automakers were
challenged. IMO, that is their Achilles heal and the only way the
consumer will receive justice regarding OEM ink monopolies.

 

[Mickey]

And you think it's ok to use illegal tactics to spy on reporters?
Even if it were legal, think of the PR ramifications. The Board and
senior management ought to change if they did this knowingly. I know
there are enough ethical companies around without having to patronize
another bad one.

They are paid to make sure the company's best interests are looked after.
Endangering a company's reputation with illegal activities is failing in
their fiduciary responsibility.

Bullshit. The board IS the heart of the company! First you say they
aren't part of the company (like how can a BOD of a company NOT be part
of the company?). Then you suggest it's OK now because somebody who's not
part of the company has resigned. Sounds like you just want this to be
easy and go away.

Absolutely.

Prime

First you need to learn to read. I said the board is typ
not Co employees. Nowhere did I say they were not part of a Co.

The Co suspected their business plans had been reveled to
outside parties for a long time. The CoB on her own hired 2
Co's to investigate the leak and the investigation focused
on board members plus 2 Co employees. It was the
investigating Co's that did the work. I don't know that
the CoB either suggested or otherwise knew of any illegal
activities at the time the investigation was taking place.
What makes you think Upper HP management knew this
investigation was being undertaken, knew, authorized or
otherwise gave their blessing on the investigating Co's
tactics? I also suspect the CoB believed finding the source
of the ongoing leaks was in the Co's interest. My
understanding is the CoB has stepped down from their
position on the board and not the board itself. HP's CEO is
taking over the position CoB.

The investigation did find the offending party and they've
admitted so. The investigation has had its negative impact
on HP's reputation but in the end, what will or has done
more damage to the Co, the negative PR or the continuing
leak of Co business plans?

I'll leave the investigation of possible illegal activities
and by who to the proper authorities and accept their
finding. In the mean time you won't find me making
allegations I have no first hand knowledge of and reading
something in the paper is NOT proof, or advocate the
boycotting of the Co which could have a negative impact on
10's of thousands of current and former employees or stock
holders in general.

Mickey

 

[measekite]

We have the MP780, iP4000, i960 and, Canon's large format work horse,
the N2000 which are all non-chipped printers. All of them use
compatible ink without any more problems than one would find using OEM
ink.

and the moon is made of swiss cheese

I bought spare print heads and ink absorbing pads for the MP780 and
iP4000

ha ha he takes them apart and replaces pads. he is in da business. boy
is that a mess.

printers in anticipation of any future problems. I plan to have them
all around for a very long time.

I think someone will eventually challenge the OEM guys on requiring
use of only OEM sold consumables in a similar manner the automakers
were challenged.

they can see the printer is designed by engineers to work as a system
with oem ink and works best the way it was designed. they can say that
if any foreign contamination ruins the printer they do not have to fix
it under the warranty.

IMO, that is their Achilles heal and the only way the consumer will
receive justice regarding OEM ink monopolies.

there really is no monopoly. nothing is to stop anybody from being
foolish and pour ink into carts that fit the machine. it would be
unconstitutional to inhibit them from pantented their carts and products.
\
and yes they are too expensive. their standard format printers are the
right price but their wide format printers do cost too much just for the
difference in size.

 

[Prime]

The Co suspected their business plans had been reveled to
outside parties for a long time. The CoB on her own hired 2
Co's to investigate the leak and the investigation focused
on board members plus 2 Co employees. It was the
investigating Co's that did the work. I don't know that
the CoB either suggested or otherwise knew of any illegal
activities at the time the investigation was taking place.
What makes you think Upper HP management knew this
investigation was being undertaken, knew, authorized or
otherwise gave their blessing on the investigating Co's
tactics?

From the Washington Post:
"Hewlett-Packard Co. chief executive Mark V. Hurd approved an elaborate
"sting" operation on a reporter in February in an attempt to plug leaks
to the media, according to an e-mail message sent by HP Chairman Patricia
C. Dunn.

Internal e-mails show senior HP employees who were given the task of
identifying anonymous news sources concocted a fictitious, high-level HP
tipster who sent bogus information to a San Francisco reporter in an
attempt to trick her into revealing her sources.

The e-mail sting operation, which was part of a wide-ranging two-part HP
investigation that began in March 2005 and ended in May 2006, is the
latest in a series of deceptive and possibly illegal tactics that reveal
the lengths to which HP went to spy on people inside and outside the
company to protect its image and secrets.

The document, one of more than two dozen e-mails obtained by The
Washington Post, for the first time links Hurd to an internal
investigation of media leaks that has led to criminal probes and will be
the subject of a congressional hearing next week."


Link is:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/content/article/2006/09/20/AR2006092001964.html

I also suspect the CoB believed finding the source

of the ongoing leaks was in the Co's interest. My
understanding is the CoB has stepped down from their
position on the board and not the board itself. HP's CEO is
taking over the position CoB.

The investigation did find the offending party and they've
admitted so. The investigation has had its negative impact
on HP's reputation but in the end, what will or has done
more damage to the Co, the negative PR or the continuing
leak of Co business plans?

The answer is irrelevant and does not justify illegal activities.

I'll leave the investigation of possible illegal activities
and by who to the proper authorities and accept their
finding. In the mean time you won't find me making
allegations I have no first hand knowledge of and reading
something in the paper is NOT proof, or advocate the
boycotting of the Co which could have a negative impact on
10's of thousands of current and former employees or stock
holders in general.

You certainly have your right to take no action. As I have my right to
take action. And to post my opinion in a newsgroup where HP's products
are relevant.

Prime