Does Epson Stylus Photo 700 really do ICM at all?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Michael A. Covington
  • Start date Start date
M

Michael A. Covington

Greetings,

After an evening of experimenting, I am beginning to doubt whether the ICM
color management of my Epson Stylus Photo 700 has any effect at all.

As I understand it, ICM should map the colors of the screen onto the color
gamut of the printer, preserving hues as best it can while reducing the
saturation as needed. This is a moderately complicated adjustment in a 2-
or 3-dimensional space, which is why we have ICM to do it for us.

And this should happen when I print to the Epson 700 color space and set the
Epson driver to "no color adjustment," or when I print to "Printer Color
Management" and set the printer to "ICM". (I also tried printing to Epson
700 color space and selecting ICM. No difference.) I'm printing from
Photoshop 6.

Well, it doesn't happen. The colors are too saturated, blocked-up as if out
of gamut, and too warm.

However, if I choose fully manual color management in the printer driver, I
can turn down the saturation, turn up the cyan, and get a reasonable
facsimile of what is on the screen. This is not as sophisticated as ICM but
it's at least a way of getting prints that, on the first try, don't look
*grossly* different from the screen.

Am I missing something here? Is there a secret ICM driver for this printer,
other than the one that comes with the driver? Something else I should
check? I tried quite a variety of printer settings, and except for fully
manual color adjustment, they all seemed exactly the same (and identically
wrong).

Also, what does PhotoEnhance do? I wasn't using it because my understanding
is that it attempts to adjust the color automatically.

Last: Is there a *cheap* inkjet printer now on the market that will
outperform the Stylus Photo 700? I'm at the point of wondering whether to
spend $45 on another set of cartridges for this old printer that I never
quite mastered, or get something new for $100 to $200 that will actually do
color matching. Canon? HP? A newer Epson?

Thanks!


Michael Covington -- www.covingtoninnovations.com
Author, Astrophotography for the Amateur
and (new) How to Use a Computerized Telescope
 
I found Epson's support for the 700 to be extremely disappointing. I always
had problems with their software and drivers on any OS beyond Windows 98.
But when it worked, it worked nicely. I couldn't get the colors quite where
they needed to be, but the image was still acceptable and very crisp. I
couldn't use anything other than Epson cartridges if I wanted colors
anywhere near accurate.

There has been quite a bit of advancement in technology since that printer
has been discontinued (about 5 years now?) I'd suggest reviewing some of
the newer printers and seeing if one doesn't more closely suit your needs.
The next time you go to buy ink, see if that money makes sense to invest in
something that will get you to where you want to be.
 
Ed E. said:
I found Epson's support for the 700 to be extremely disappointing. I always
had problems with their software and drivers on any OS beyond Windows 98.
But when it worked, it worked nicely. I couldn't get the colors quite where
they needed to be, but the image was still acceptable and very crisp. I
couldn't use anything other than Epson cartridges if I wanted colors
anywhere near accurate.

There has been quite a bit of advancement in technology since that printer
has been discontinued (about 5 years now?) I'd suggest reviewing some of
the newer printers and seeing if one doesn't more closely suit your needs.
The next time you go to buy ink, see if that money makes sense to invest in
something that will get you to where you want to be.
Click to expand...

That is exactly what I'm doing. Instead of $45 worth of ink, I'm wondering
about $100 to $200 worth of new printer (with ink).

Do later Epsons support ICM properly?

Should I be looking at Canon? i960? What models?

This is for relatively low-volume printing of photographs. Many of them are
scientific images where automatic color balancing is *not* wanted; I want to
adjust the color on my screen and then print what I see. I know about gamut
limitations, etc., so I'm not naively expecting the printout to look just
like the screen image, but I'd at least like to have technologies such as
ICM help me out a little.

Looking at the Epson Stylus Photo 700 manual, it looks like ICM was an
afterthought -- the manual indicates that it's there but gives almost no
indication of what to expect from it. Maybe they never really implemented
it, and all these years, their ICM profile is really just a piece of
temporary do-nothing code.
 
Do later Epsons support ICM properly?

Should I be looking at Canon? i960? What models?
Click to expand...

I wish I could be of more help here, but I take all of my stuff to a local
lab to have printed now. In my case, it out to be less expensive, look more
professional, and the prints last much longer. I'm hoping that some others
here can be of some help to you.
 
I would look at the new Epsons. They give great results. Also have you
adjusted your monitor so you are seeing the image correctly.
 
Michael A. Covington said:
Greetings,

After an evening of experimenting, I am beginning to doubt whether the ICM
color management of my Epson Stylus Photo 700 has any effect at all.

As I understand it, ICM should map the colors of the screen onto the color
gamut of the printer, preserving hues as best it can while reducing the
saturation as needed. This is a moderately complicated adjustment in a 2-
or 3-dimensional space, which is why we have ICM to do it for us.

And this should happen when I print to the Epson 700 color space and set the
Epson driver to "no color adjustment," or when I print to "Printer Color
Management" and set the printer to "ICM". (I also tried printing to Epson
700 color space and selecting ICM. No difference.) I'm printing from
Photoshop 6.

Well, it doesn't happen. The colors are too saturated, blocked-up as if out
of gamut, and too warm.

However, if I choose fully manual color management in the printer driver, I
can turn down the saturation, turn up the cyan, and get a reasonable
facsimile of what is on the screen. This is not as sophisticated as ICM but
it's at least a way of getting prints that, on the first try, don't look
*grossly* different from the screen.

Am I missing something here? Is there a secret ICM driver for this printer,
other than the one that comes with the driver? Something else I should
check? I tried quite a variety of printer settings, and except for fully
manual color adjustment, they all seemed exactly the same (and identically
wrong).

Also, what does PhotoEnhance do? I wasn't using it because my understanding
is that it attempts to adjust the color automatically.

Last: Is there a *cheap* inkjet printer now on the market that will
outperform the Stylus Photo 700? I'm at the point of wondering whether to
spend $45 on another set of cartridges for this old printer that I never
quite mastered, or get something new for $100 to $200 that will actually do
color matching. Canon? HP? A newer Epson?

Thanks!


Michael Covington -- www.covingtoninnovations.com
Author, Astrophotography for the Amateur
and (new) How to Use a Computerized Telescope
Click to expand...

Michael,

for colormanagement with a(n Epson) printer you need
- a colormanagement software like photoshop
- "no color adjustment" in the driver
- ICC-profiles that fit to your printer and paper (that the clue)

If you can specify "no color adjustment", the printer supports
colormangement if the photoeditor supports it.

You have to specify an icc-profile in the photoeditor in the print
dialog.
The big problem is to find the right icc-profile, especially for third
party paper. The photoeditor converts the data from the working color
space to the printer color space.

That's all

What is your working color space ? the paper ? the icc-profile ?


Winfried
 
Safetymom123 said:
I would look at the new Epsons. They give great results. Also have you
adjusted your monitor so you are seeing the image correctly.
Click to expand...

Yes, the monitor has been adjusted with Adobe Gamma, and also, I have been
working from the numbers (RGB values) so in some cases I know exactly how
the picture should be looking.

ICM apparently has no effect on this printer.
 
for colormanagement with a(n Epson) printer you need
- a colormanagement software like photoshop
- "no color adjustment" in the driver
- ICC-profiles that fit to your printer and paper (that the clue)

If you can specify "no color adjustment", the printer supports
colormangement if the photoeditor supports it.

You have to specify an icc-profile in the photoeditor in the print
dialog.
The big problem is to find the right icc-profile, especially for third
party paper. The photoeditor converts the data from the working color
space to the printer color space.

That's all

What is your working color space ? the paper ? the icc-profile ?
Click to expand...

Working space, Adobe RGB.
Monitor calibrated with Adobe Gamma, and I'm also looking at the RGB numbers
to double-check.

ICM profile: Epson Stylus Photo 700.
"No Color Adjustment" or "ICM" in the printer driver (they give the same
results).

I think the problem is that the ICM profile for the printer doesn't really
do the job, and no other profile is available for it as best I can
determine.
 
Michael A. Covington said:
That is exactly what I'm doing. Instead of $45 worth of ink, I'm wondering
about $100 to $200 worth of new printer (with ink).

Do later Epsons support ICM properly?

Should I be looking at Canon? i960? What models?

This is for relatively low-volume printing of photographs. Many of them are
scientific images where automatic color balancing is *not* wanted; I want to
adjust the color on my screen and then print what I see. I know about gamut
limitations, etc., so I'm not naively expecting the printout to look just
like the screen image, but I'd at least like to have technologies such as
ICM help me out a little.

Looking at the Epson Stylus Photo 700 manual, it looks like ICM was an
afterthought -- the manual indicates that it's there but gives almost no
indication of what to expect from it. Maybe they never really implemented
it, and all these years, their ICM profile is really just a piece of
temporary do-nothing code.
Click to expand...

I get similar problems with my Epson Stylus Photo 750, again
about four years old. I go through screen setups on my ViewSonic P815
sticking pieces of card with cutouts on the screen and entering which
one is closest to the colour. Yet still my prints are NOT exactly what
I get on the screen. It is always rather faded. I have to up the Reds
and contrast to get a good print.

Is just getting a newer printer the answer?

Chris.
 
And this should happen when I print to the Epson 700 color space and set the
Epson driver to "no color adjustment," or when I print to "Printer Color
Management" and set the printer to "ICM". (I also tried printing to Epson
700 color space and selecting ICM. No difference.) I'm printing from
Photoshop 6.

Well, it doesn't happen. The colors are too saturated, blocked-up as if out
of gamut, and too warm.
Click to expand...

Just checking.......

A lot of problems come when BOTH the printer's own color management
and the photo editor's color management are used at the same time -
ie: getting in effect DOUBLE color management.

This is a case of EITHER/OR - ie:

EITHER use the photo editor's color management only with the printer
set to No color adjustment..

OR turn off the photo editor's color management, and print with the
printer's color management, in this case ICM.

but NOT BOTH.

Here's a rather good article:

Out of Gamut: Color Management Made Stupid
By Bruce Fraser

http://www.creativepro.com/printerfriendly/story/2440.html
 
I get similar problems with my Epson Stylus Photo 750, again
about four years old. I go through screen setups on my ViewSonic P815
sticking pieces of card with cutouts on the screen and entering which
one is closest to the colour. Yet still my prints are NOT exactly what
I get on the screen. It is always rather faded. I have to up the Reds
and contrast to get a good print.
Click to expand...

Printers cannot produce colors as bright and vivid as you see on the screen.
This is called gamut limitation. However, right now my Epson gives me a
*big* color shift (the prints are way too red; the blues are violet and the
violets are magenta) which is correctable only with manual color adjustment
in the printer driver.

That's what I'm hoping ICM will help me with.
 
EITHER use the photo editor's color management only with the printer
set to No color adjustment..

OR turn off the photo editor's color management, and print with the
printer's color management, in this case ICM.

but NOT BOTH.
Click to expand...

Understood. I have tried either one, both, and neither. Would you believe
the prints look the same all 4 ways? That's why I distrust Epson's ICM
profile. I think it's not doing anything.
 
I don't know what the printer driver actually do when you select ICM,
but I guess you don't need it – in fact, when you select "Printer
Color Mangement" in Photoshop, you are in fact telling the program to
convert colors from the input color space to the printer's color space
(defined by the printer's default color profile) – this is a ICM
conversion. If you then select "Color management in the printer
driver", you can make further adjustments.

Mapril Oliveira
http://www.mapril.net Software for Digital Photography
 
Understood. I have tried either one, both, and neither. Would you believe
the prints look the same all 4 ways? That's why I distrust Epson's ICM
profile. I think it's not doing anything.
Click to expand...

all 4 look the same - might be a hint........

let's take one basic step back, just to check....

do you have the Epson Printer's icc (color ) profile properly loaded
and acknowledged by the operating system?

Under Windoz if you click on the printer's properties and click the
color management tab - that should show you the color profile selected
for the printer - if you do not have one, then that's the
problem......
 
Michael A. Covington said:
Working space, Adobe RGB.
Monitor calibrated with Adobe Gamma, and I'm also looking at the RGB numbers
to double-check.

ICM profile: Epson Stylus Photo 700.
"No Color Adjustment" or "ICM" in the printer driver (they give the same
results).

I think the problem is that the ICM profile for the printer doesn't really
do the job, and no other profile is available for it as best I can
determine.
Click to expand...

Your problem is this line: "ICM profile: Epson Stylus Photo 700" This is
NOT an ICM/ICC profile. This is the canned paper "package setting" that
comes with the printer; it tells the printer to color correct for the Espon
paper settings you designate in the actual driver. This is the same package
setting that comes with all Epson consumer printers

A true profile is completely different for EACH paper type, ink set, and dpi
setting.
 
let's take one basic step back, just to check....
do you have the Epson Printer's icc (color ) profile properly loaded
and acknowledged by the operating system?

Under Windoz if you click on the printer's properties and click the
color management tab - that should show you the color profile selected
for the printer - if you do not have one, then that's the
problem......
Click to expand...

It's there.
 
Finally found settings that work.

In Photoshop:
Source space: Document (Adobe RGB)
Print space: Same As Source

In printer driver:
Custom Settings, ICM.

What I get is a quite credible ICM-balanced picture. It's not a perfect
match to the screen, but it's not grossly off. It's something I can live
with. Particularly the tonality (brightness gradation) is much better than
with other modes.

What did *not* work was (among other things):
Print Space: Printer Color Management and any of a vast range of
settings on the printer;

nor
Print Space: Epson Stylus Photo 700 and color management disabled on the
printer.


While I don't know why these others didn't work (and am still thinking of
getting a Canon printer), I'm glad to have achieved some success.
 
Flycaster said:
Your problem is this line: "ICM profile: Epson Stylus Photo 700" This is
NOT an ICM/ICC profile. This is the canned paper "package setting" that
comes with the printer; it tells the printer to color correct for the Espon
paper settings you designate in the actual driver. This is the same package
setting that comes with all Epson consumer printers

A true profile is completely different for EACH paper type, ink set, and dpi
setting.
Click to expand...

What should be done about this?
 
Michael A. Covington said:
What should be done about this?
Click to expand...

Simple. Either buy a medium range profile making package (Monaco and others
make these), or just have a profile maker build one or two custom profiles
for you. Or, just dial in the driver settings until you get "close enough",
and call it good.
 
I still have this old printer. When I got a 1280 I was initially irked at
how hard it was to get the 1280 color in synch with the monitor compared to
the 700.
 
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