Do current popular motherboards have 3D acceleration?

[Charles Packer]

Being a late-adopter, I've only just now discovered that
my current home-built can't run Google Earth properly
because of lack of a 3D accelerator. So, do the latest
motherboards have this capability built into the on-board
video?

Another question: The case I intend to upgrade has an
ATX motherboard in it. Do I need to replace it with an
ATX or will any other form factor fit?

 

[Paul]

Being a late-adopter, I've only just now discovered that
my current home-built can't run Google Earth properly
because of lack of a 3D accelerator. So, do the latest
motherboards have this capability built into the on-board
video?

Another question: The case I intend to upgrade has an
ATX motherboard in it. Do I need to replace it with an
ATX or will any other form factor fit?

ATX come in 12"x9.6" regular ATX, as well as
9.6"x9.6" MicroATX. Make sure your case has room
for a full-sized motherboard, if you are shopping for
one. If you have a tiny case with a couple hundred watt
supply in it, from some old Dell, then a retail board
might not fit. (Especially if the Dell is BTX, and
you're shopping for ATX motherboards.)

And yes, it's possible to purchase a motherboard
and CPU, and end up with video acceleration. But
just as easily, you can find a $30 video card
(with fan or passively cooled), that will offer
several times the horsepower, while sipping power.
Some of the newer video cards are just amazing
on power consumption. (Some of them are suited
to building HTPCs.) They can help accelerate Flash
video, movie playback, or even Google Earth (DirectX
or OpenGL).

*******

On the Intel side, I can check ark.intel.com to see
if the CPU has video capability.

http://ark.intel.com/products/65523/Intel-Core-i7-3770K-Processor-8M-Cache-up-to-3_90-GHz?q=3770k

Processor Graphics Intel HD Graphics 4000

On AMD, the Fusion processors (APUs) have built-in
video.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Accelerated_Processing_Unit

If you go with AMD AM3 or AM3+ sockets, then the chipset
can have a GPU in it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_AMD_Chipsets

For example, on that page, I see

880G IGP = Radeon HD 4250

On this page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_900_chipset_series

990G IGP = Radeon HD 4250

The letter "G" is a hint the Northbridge has graphics in it.

It's possible the APUs have better graphics, but only
if you're building an HTPC, should you be fooling
around with stuff like that. You're much better off
just buying a $30 video card, and getting the video
from it. It eliminates a lot of guess-work. There
aren't really fool-proof recipes in the above,
selecting the right hardware to bolt together. And
the AMD web site doesn't help matters. (I would
sooner use Wikipedia, than visit AMD.com any more.)

On Intel, the GPU is inside the CPU. So if you wanted
to run the motherboard, with no video card, then
you select a CPU with "HD 4000" listed in the specs.

http://www.legitreviews.com/images/reviews/1882/z77-block-diagram.jpg

Now, on the motherboard, you need a chipset that has
the graphics connectors. The Z77 in that diagram, has
a "FDI" bus from the processor. And there are
"3 Independent Display" on the side of the Z77. Then,
I glance at the motherboard, and verify there is a
DVI, HDMI, and/or VGA connector in the I/O area.
That's the "recipe" for Intel. The CPU may or may
not have a GPU. If no GPU is present, then a Z77
motherboard cannot drive out an image on the three
video connectors. It'll be a black screen. You need
both an equipped motherboard, and the right CPU.

On AMD, I buy a FM2 motherboard, and it might be
a "relative slam-dunk" from there. I don't think
FM2 allows enough mix n' match to get yourself
in trouble. With Intel, I can get myself in trouble.
(I've run into at least one Intel customer, who
bought the wrong processor for a project.)

If you go AM3/AM3+ on AMD, then in that case you
verify the motherboard has video connectors.
Only some of the Northbridges for chipsets, have
a GPU inside. I saw 880G and 980G in the above
web pages. But verifying there are video connectors
on your AM3/AM3+ motherboard might be just as easy
a means to verify. On AM3/AM3+, the GPU is on the
motherboard, inside the Northbridge. And only
certain Northbridges have it. An AM3/AM3+ motherboard
with video connectors, is proof.

A $30 video card, is not a "wonder card". It barely
qualifies as a frame buffer. It's not for building
a gaming machine. Crysis is going to run at 5 FPS
on it. But it will do things like play a Flash video,
run Google Earth, and provide "buzzword compliance".
Which is what I think you're asking for. The built-in
GPUs can do that too. It's just the $30 card, might
be twice as good as a weak chipset GPU.

Paul

 

[Flasherly]

Being a late-adopter, I've only just now discovered that
my current home-built can't run Google Earth properly
because of lack of a 3D accelerator. So, do the latest
motherboards have this capability built into the on-board
video?

Pretty much, generally, widely, or generically speaking. MBs with a
soldered-in GPU took over the main share of market goto a computer, as
fast as possible, for all in one builds ages ago. Anything left is
going to be smaller, dedicated cadre of game-oriented performance
machines. No way Google's going to place itself outside of the
broadest possible hardware norm. That's just what they do in
appealing to the broadest audiences possible. Anything with a build
date make for the past couple years should do just fine for that
purpose (many "new" MBs will report back with an actual build dating
back up to a year ago).

Another question: The case I intend to upgrade has an
ATX motherboard in it. Do I need to replace it with an
ATX or will any other form factor fit?

Yes, ideally. Or just eyeball through it when making the placement,
best to match the standoff screws, favor not pushing where and if you
turn up shy a screw or two, or make them if you like. I've used some
old white, hard pastic standoffs that don't actually fit the case,
just keep the MB from flexing downward. Conceptually no different
from a block of hard packaging foam, cut and adequately shaped to fit,
for all purposeful intents.

For extra credit have a look at where builders tend go shy - software.
Builds always run great compared to that software some programmer
takes great delight over in breaking them. Why? Because there's very
few with a technical capacity to pinpoint exactly the errors of his
ways.

 

[Charles Packer]

Thanks to both of you.

I've decided to go with a separate graphics card.

After spending the morning stumbling around Tiger and some other
vendor sites, I've arrived at these tentative choices from Tiger:

1. A motherboard bundle with memory selected from a convenient
(only seven selections!) list of combos:
http://tinyurl.com/m6f42pm
2. A video card -- the top of the "most popular" list
in the price range $25-$49:
http://tinyurl.com/a5sjd8x

 

[Flasherly]

Thanks to both of you.

I've decided to go with a separate graphics card.

After spending the morning stumbling around Tiger and some other
vendor sites, I've arrived at these tentative choices from Tiger:

1. A motherboard bundle with memory selected from a convenient
(only seven selections!) list of combos:
http://tinyurl.com/m6f42pm
2. A video card -- the top of the "most popular" list
in the price range $25-$49:
http://tinyurl.com/a5sjd8x

Thx, chris. Only 7? - hit newegg.com and memlists runs into the
hundreds [sort by # of reviews, narrow by price, and match specs for
selecting from one w/a lot of returns) - can get pretty darn cheap
that way. can then optionally drill into reviews and get more
thorough.]

Got a privately delivered email this morn from newegg/weekend sale on
a PCI-E graphics board. Most popular doesn't really apply any more,
in my experience, but for realtime applications - mostly used by
gamers, and those boys don't often start playing seriously with a
board(s SLI x2 config) under $100.

Only thing I basically know about TigerDirect is it was started up by
a woman within own rights and objectives who has done a good job;-
just not saying she beats newegg, is all - newegg, btw, was started
local to me before moving to Big Time San Fran Cisco (- bought,
renamed, just wasn't called NE then. Run out of a college dorm room.-)

Anyway, these graphics boards aren't really reviewed, per se, on the
lower priced spectrum, but more invariably rebated now on occasional
discount incentives. An alternative to mostly vid-chipped MBs. The
MSI - btw is $10/US out the door, shipped free, but rebated to $10
from probably within your price qualifications. Probably
available/relevant via their filters: 1) price, 2) rebates applicable.
Might want to add a discounted items filter.

So much for mark-ups.

But, I know what you mean. It's a major pain if cross-sourcing parts
and one shows up incompatable. Cost back shipping, restocking fees --
sort of blows to hell the "I built it specifically, righteously, on a
budget" concept. ...More of late buying from Ebay, damn right, I know
exactly what that means.

 

[Paul]

Thanks to both of you.

I've decided to go with a separate graphics card.

After spending the morning stumbling around Tiger and some other
vendor sites, I've arrived at these tentative choices from Tiger:

1. A motherboard bundle with memory selected from a convenient
(only seven selections!) list of combos:
http://tinyurl.com/m6f42pm
2. A video card -- the top of the "most popular" list
in the price range $25-$49:
http://tinyurl.com/a5sjd8x

I like the HD 5450 card Because it's so cheap

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=7373215&csid=_61

Some info on the card, here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_HD_5000_Series

Radeon HD 5450 Feb 4, 2010 Core 80:8:4 Idle 6.4 watts Peak 19.1 watts

That's about half the peak power, used by one of my video cards
from ten years ago. The memory bandwidth is terrible, as gaming
cards go. But it should make a good LCD monitor driver for the
desktop. It's the kind of card you would use in a HTPC home
theater PC.

*******

GIGABYTE AMD GA-970A-DS3 AM3+ FX ATX Motherboard and
AMD FX-4100 3.60 GHz Quad Core AM3+ Unlocked CPU and
ADATA Premier Srs 4GB DDR3 Desktop Memory Module Bundle

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=7909481&Sku=M69-0850

So we look on the motherboard first, for video connectors.

"GA-970A-DS3"
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128553

The reviewers give it only 3 of 5 stars. You should read
the customer review section and find out why.

There are no video connectors, but since you're getting
an HD 5450 or something similar, you are covered for graphics.

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/13-128-553-Z02?$S640W$

And PS/2 keyboard and mouse are visible in the picture as well,
so legacy keyboard and mouse can be connected.

You will notice, the motherboard comes in at least three different
revisions. Which is why some of the reviews on Newegg will be just
plain wrong about some issues.

http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4385#ov

Assuming it is Revision 3, you download a Revision 3 manual for it.
On page 6, is a block diagram. One video slot is "real", and
that's the x16 closest to the processor. The other is an x4 fake,
which is still good for things like perhaps a RAID card. The
Etron EJ168 is a USB3 chip, which accounts for some USB3 labeling
in the I/O plate area. You will need to track down the latest
and greatest Etrontech driver.

http://download.gigabyte.us/FileList/Manual/mb_manual_ga-970a-ds3_v.3.x_e.pdf

*******

For the FX-4100, we can look here for a benchmark.

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html

AMD FX-4100 Quad-Core 4,041 <---
AMD Phenom II X4 965 4,308
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 5,976

Intel Core i5-2500K @ 3.30GHz 6,382
Intel Core i7-2600K @ 3.40GHz 8,494
Intel Core i7-3770K @ 3.50GHz 9,608
Intel Core i7-4770K Coming this summer

Your processor is 95W. Socket AM3+ interface.

http://products.amd.com/en-us/DesktopCPUDetail.aspx?id=773

The 4100 is listed here.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4955/the-bulldozer-review-amd-fx8150-tested

It is effectively, half of one of these. The cores are
arranged in pairs, with one fetch and decode pipe, per
pair of cores.

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/4955/BDArch.png

HTH,
Paul

 

[Paul]

Thanks to both of you.

I've decided to go with a separate graphics card.

After spending the morning stumbling around Tiger and some other
vendor sites, I've arrived at these tentative choices from Tiger:

1. A motherboard bundle with memory selected from a convenient
(only seven selections!) list of combos:
http://tinyurl.com/m6f42pm
2. A video card -- the top of the "most popular" list
in the price range $25-$49:
http://tinyurl.com/a5sjd8x

And this is the measured power consumption on the HD 5450.
I don't think Xbitlabs does these any more, so more modern
cards, we can only guess at the direction they're taking.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/display/gpu-power-consumption-2010_3.html

Paul

 

[Charles Packer]

"GA-970A-DS3"http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128553

The reviewers give it only 3 of 5 stars. You should read
the customer review section and find out why.

Yup, you're right (it didn't occur to me to sort the
247 reviews on the first go-around). Hardware problems
are what I don't need. I'm a software guy. Instead of my
choices, I would _gladly_ take recommendations
for a motherboard, chip set and graphics card all for less
than $300. Going with an available bundle just
seemed easier than having to learn how to decode the
specs to match up CPU with motherboard.. Everything has
gotten more complicated than when I did this last time,
about five or seven years ago.

So far, Google Earth is probably the most demanding
thing I'll be doing, graphically, but there could be
scientific visualization software in the future. FWIW,
I'm a die-hard CRT fan, at least for the lifetime of
the monitors I've got now.

 

[Paul]

Yup, you're right (it didn't occur to me to sort the
247 reviews on the first go-around). Hardware problems
are what I don't need. I'm a software guy. Instead of my
choices, I would _gladly_ take recommendations
for a motherboard, chip set and graphics card all for less
than $300. Going with an available bundle just
seemed easier than having to learn how to decode the
specs to match up CPU with motherboard.. Everything has
gotten more complicated than when I did this last time,
about five or seven years ago.

So far, Google Earth is probably the most demanding
thing I'll be doing, graphically, but there could be
scientific visualization software in the future. FWIW,
I'm a die-hard CRT fan, at least for the lifetime of
the monitors I've got now.

First off, there are problems with Newegg reviews.

For example, if you look at hard drive reviews, something has
happened to their review database. Such that many different
drive models, the reviews are all showing up under the same
product heading (1TB, 2TB, 3TB drive reviews on the 1TB page).

For the motherboard, as I pointed out, there can be several
revisions. If a motherboard has only one revision, or if there
are no significant differences between revisions, then the
reviews can be taken at face value. Otherwise, you have to
sort them with care. Same goes for "finger problem" reviews,
where the new owner of the product doesn't have a clue what
they're doing, and they broke it.

To select a product, you can select say, all AM3/AM3+ motherboards,
then sort the returned result by reputation. Then, see if anything
in the sorted list, is available elsewhere as a bundle.

For Newegg motherboard reviews, it would be a rare board that
gets a five star rating. Four stars is more the norm. What you're
looking for in the reviews, is commonality of symptoms. For example,
when some motherboards had failing Attansic ethernet chips, that
showed up as a dropout within the first month of ownership. And that
would be a clear reason to not buy that particular product.

Other reasons for not buying, would be visibly damaged overloaded
VCore circuits, connectors that pulled right out of the board,
the kinds of things that could have been avoided with proper design.

You can easily do this kind of selection process yourself.

For example, when I buy RAM, it takes me about two hours work
to run through the reviews, and make a selection. And the last
time I did it, it actually did change my purchasing choice. While
I liked the specs of another product, I had to take a pass when
I saw how many people had problems with it.

So the newest problem on Newegg, is degradation of the
review database, and pollution with irrelevant
("don't belong there") reviews.

Paul

 

[Mike Tomlinson]

En el artículo <[email protected]

Being a late-adopter, I've only just now discovered that
my current home-built can't run Google Earth properly
because of lack of a 3D accelerator. So, do the latest
motherboards have this capability built into the on-board
video?

Not any more, the "on-board" video is now built into the CPU itself.
The motherboard maker merely decides what video output sockets to
present on the back plate - VGA, HDMI, DVI, DisplayPort, etc.

If you're keeping your existing monitor, simply make sure the board you
choose has a video output it will connect to.

Another question: The case I intend to upgrade has an
ATX motherboard in it. Do I need to replace it with an
ATX

yes (ATX or mini-ATX)

or will any other form factor fit?

no

 

[Mike Tomlinson]

En el artículo <[email protected]

I would _gladly_ take recommendations
for a motherboard, chip set and graphics card all for less
than $300.

An Intel Core i3-2120 will do all you want (and run Google Earth). It
has built-in Intel HD2000 video, so you don't need an add-in video card.

FWIW,
I'm a die-hard CRT fan, at least for the lifetime of
the monitors I've got now.

OK, so you want a VGA output. For a motherboard, I'd suggest an MSI
Z77A-G45, this is a well-priced and capable board. It supports VGA, DVI
and HDMI video out, so if you do change your CRT for a TFT later, it'll
support that too.

Pros: a reliable and well-built board at a good price. Has SATA3 so you
can add an SSD later and run it at its full potential.

Cons: No PCI slots, only PCIe (you don't mention a requirement for PCI
cards). No IDE, so you won't be able to re-use your existing IDE hard
or optical drives.

http://www.msi.com/product/mb/Z77A-G45.html

By the time you add SATA hard and optical drives and memory, you'll
still come in well under your $300 budget.