Differences Between FireGL and RADEON?

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Will

Apparently the workstation product line FireGL uses the same GPUs used in
the gamer product line RADEON. What are the effective differences between
equivalent GPUs in each series?

In terms of hardware, are there any differences in components that support
the GPU or how the board is optimized/designed?

In terms of firmware, what extra features get unlocked on the FireGL?
 
* Will:
Apparently the workstation product line FireGL uses the same GPUs used in
the gamer product line RADEON.

correct. The FireGL is basically the same like a Radeon PRO...
What are the effective differences between
equivalent GPUs in each series?

The Radeon supports several additional features (like AA lines) that are
useful for professional applications but which is not used by games in
any way. The drivers are somewhat different, too. While the Direct3D
part is identical between Radeon and FireGL the latter uses different
OpenGL drivers which support the full OpenGL command set. Note that this
is valid for the desktop Radeon/FireGL only, the mobile chipsets use
both identical drivers...

Another difference is the way the control panel works. The Radeon offers
a lot of settings which allow the user to tweak the performance and
compatibility of his gfx card. The FireGL only has a very few settings
(three IIRC, I'm actually to lazy to verify) which prevents the user
from altering anything.
In terms of hardware, are there any differences in components that support
the GPU or how the board is optimized/designed?

The difference is in the connection of several SMD resisitors which
decide if the GPU initializes as Radeon or FireGL. Basically the boards
are somewhat similar, with the FireGL usually having some differences of
course (like interface for 3D shutter glasses instead of TV out or VIVO)
In terms of firmware, what extra features get unlocked on the FireGL?

None.

Benjamin
 
Benjamin Gawert said:
The Radeon supports several additional features (like AA lines) that are

You meant FireGL I guess.

Another difference is the way the control panel works. The Radeon offers
a lot of settings which allow the user to tweak the performance and
compatibility of his gfx card. The FireGL only has a very few settings
(three IIRC, I'm actually to lazy to verify) which prevents the user
from altering anything.

Does FireGL let you force a particular setting for Anti-aliasing and
Anistrophic Filtering, for DirectX and OpenGL?
 
* Will:
You meant FireGL I guess.

Yes, of course it should be "FireGL" and not "Radeon". Sorry.
Does FireGL let you force a particular setting for Anti-aliasing and
Anistrophic Filtering, for DirectX and OpenGL?

No.

Benjamin
 
Benjamin Gawert said:

That's awful! What if the application doesn't set values correctly? I
know with RADEON for example that some 3D games simply use no antialiasing
at all if you select the RADEON antialiasing option to "let the application
choose". The only way to force such software to properly antialias is to
preselect in the driver a specific level of antialias and filtering you want
used in all cases.
 
* Will:
That's awful! What if the application doesn't set values correctly?
The applications the FireGLs are certified for do that correctly...
I know with RADEON for example that some 3D games simply use no
antialiasing at all if you select the RADEON antialiasing option to
"let the application choose". The only way to force such software
to properly antialias is to preselect in the driver a specific level
of antialias and filtering you want used in all cases.

Well, as you say these are games. Gaming is hardly the target audience
for FireGL cards, and for gaming Radeon cards are much better...

Benjamin
 
Benjamin Gawert said:
The applications the FireGLs are certified for do that correctly...

The principal is the same. Applications make mistakes. There should be a
way to force a certain level of hardware performance in such cases.

Many applications are not certified. The user should have options to try
out hardware even for non certified applications.
 
* Will:
The principal is the same. Applications make mistakes. There should be a
way to force a certain level of hardware performance in such cases.

It is not necessary because such "mistakes" (usually regarded as errors
or bugs) usually simply don't happen with professional applications.
It's not like games which are rushed out and fixed later...
Many applications are not certified. The user should have options to try
out hardware even for non certified applications.

What for? No-one buys a FireGL card that costs ~3x the money as a
comparable Radeon if he has no applications that require it. As I said
the applications that usually are run on a FireGL don't make errors like
the games you describe...

But I agree that the availability of settings on FireGLs is extremely
sparse. As a comparison, Nvidia Quadro cards offer _more_ settings than
the comparable Geforce cards...

Benjamin
 
Benjamin Gawert said:
* Will:


It is not necessary because such "mistakes" (usually regarded as errors or bugs) usually simply don't happen with professional
applications. It's not like games which are rushed out and fixed later...


What for? No-one buys a FireGL card that costs ~3x the money as a comparable Radeon if he has no applications that require it. As
I said the applications that usually are run on a FireGL don't make errors like the games you describe...

FireGL V7350 for $1999.00 US dollars. 8) wow
http://www.ati.com/products/workstation/benchmarks.html
http://www.ati.com/products/workstation/fireglmatrix.html
 
Benjamin Gawert said:
It is not necessary because such "mistakes" (usually regarded as errors
or bugs) usually simply don't happen with professional applications.
It's not like games which are rushed out and fixed later...

It's the wrong philosophy. There are hundreds of serious bugs in major
software systems supported by billion dollar companies, and it's just not
right to say "don't worry we are professionals and if something breaks we
will take care of it."

It's absolutely not a big deal to just give an option in a video driver to
enable certain features by default.

What for? No-one buys a FireGL card that costs ~3x the money as a
comparable Radeon if he has no applications that require it. As I said
the applications that usually are run on a FireGL don't make errors like
the games you describe...

Pretty presumptuous of you, and pretty abhorrently bad marketing on ATI's
part. People buy hardware if it helps their application do what they want
at a price they can afford.

In my case, I have a flight simulation system that uses OpenGL on the back
end and benefits from a full feature set of OpenGL in the FireGL cards.
It' just bad marketing that I should have to convince a software vendor to
specifically program for ATI's card, or go through some stupid
recertification process.
 
errors like the games you describe...
FireGL V7350 for $1999.00 US dollars. 8) wow

Or pickup a FireGL V7100 for under $200 on eBay and get 50% of the benefit
for 1/10th the price.
 
* Will:
It's the wrong philosophy.

Nope, it's not. For the market (remember that these cards are not aimed
at gamers or home users but the workstation market) it's completely
appropriate...
There are hundreds of serious bugs in major
software systems supported by billion dollar companies, and it's just not
right to say "don't worry we are professionals and if something breaks we
will take care of it."

It is, because it's what the software vendors are responsible for, and
that's why you have to have certified hardware (not only a certified gfx
card but a complete system). If something doesn't work you report the
bug to the software support, and they will fix it - usually within a few
days, not in several months or somewhen with the next software release
like it's common for games and standard applications...
It's absolutely not a big deal to just give an option in a video driver to
enable certain features by default.

Of course not, I share your opinion that this is quite poor for a
professional gfx card. However, this doesn't change anything on the fact
that in the aimed market it simply is not needed...
In my case, I have a flight simulation system that uses OpenGL on the back
end and benefits from a full feature set of OpenGL in the FireGL cards.
It' just bad marketing that I should have to convince a software vendor to
specifically program for ATI's card, or go through some stupid
recertification process.

Well, I don't know what software you have but if your flight simulation
software is not some game or something like FlightGear or X-Plane but
some really serious software (industrial level simulation) then FireGL
is probably the wrong choice for you, but in this case the additional
money for a comparable Nvidia Quadro card shouldn't be a problem. If it
is something like FlightGear or X-Plane or any other simulation program
that is more for consumers then a Geforce card would be the better
choice. You should be aware that ATIs OpenGL drivers never were as good
as the ones from Nvidia, even not the one of the FireGL. Unlike ATI
Nvidia uses the same drivers for Quadro and Geforce, meaning that even a
standard Geforce has the same very good OpenGL support like a Quadro.
Even industrial level flight simulation software usually doesn't use the
additional features of a Quadro/FireGL, so you should be totally fine
with a good(!) Geforce card. I'd recommend not to go for a fancy
overclocker card but fo a quality card from PNY (PNY is also the only
manufacturer of Quadro cards).

Benjamin
 
Benjamin Gawert said:
Nope, it's not. For the market (remember that these cards are not aimed
at gamers or home users but the workstation market) it's completely
appropriate...

It's not the right strategy for any market, for any customer, if with two
days of programming time to expose some simple options in the driver
software, you allow users to easily workaround bugs or allow previously
unforeseen applications to work with your card. It's not a "feature" to be
able to call an officially supported application's vendor and spend four
hours with them explaining their bug to them.

The only reason to take out an option like anti aliasing or filtering from a
driver is when you need account control of some sort, which in this case I
doubt ATI needs.

Well, I don't know what software you have but if your flight simulation
software is not some game or something like FlightGear or X-Plane but
some really serious software (industrial level simulation) then FireGL
is probably the wrong choice for you, but in this case the additional
money for a comparable Nvidia Quadro card shouldn't be a problem. If it

X-Plane is used by Boeing to do early design verficiation on their blended
wing future generation aircraft. So that one is a perfect example of the
sheer stupidity of locking out a nice graphic card from use in any
unforeseen usage simply because of a failure to add some simple options onto
a device driver to force the use of antialias and filtering. It is simply
ridiculous that Boeing would need to convince ATI of anything in order to
get support for some application they use internally.

choice. You should be aware that ATIs OpenGL drivers never were as good
as the ones from Nvidia, even not the one of the FireGL. Unlike ATI
Nvidia uses the same drivers for Quadro and Geforce, meaning that even a
standard Geforce has the same very good OpenGL support like a Quadro.
Even industrial level flight simulation software usually doesn't use the
additional features of a Quadro/FireGL, so you should be totally fine
with a good(!) Geforce card. I'd recommend not to go for a fancy
overclocker card but fo a quality card from PNY (PNY is also the only
manufacturer of Quadro cards).

And that's reason #3 to never lock out options from a driver the way ATI is
doing: competition. Competition is not going to make the same mistakes
ATI does.

Looks like I may be getting yet another Nvidia card when I wanted to buy ATI
but couldn't because ATI has their head stuck in a very obscure marketing
cloud. That would bring to total about 21 ATI cards I wanted to buy this
year but couldn't because ATI makes weird marketing decisions. The other
cards were because they refused to support RADEON on Windows 2003. Windows
2003 and Windows XP have basically the same core OS and drivers, so if you
have developed for XP you get Windows 2003 essentially for free. Nvidia
supported it right out of the box. ATI instead wastes a lot of time and
energy by rationalizing that Windows 2003 is a "server operating system and
no one would need a RADEON for a server." So instead of getting some
extra market for free, they stick checks into their code and if you run
Windows 2003 they refuse to work. ATI doesn't seem to realize that the
market for something like a Windows OS is so large and diverse that people
sometimes use the OS in unexpected ways, and if you can get an extra 1/2 or
1% of market share just by supporting unusual applications with no
additional work, why not? So Nvidia got that order for 20 6800s and ATI
didn't get any RADEONs because what we wanted is something their marketing
group thinks is impossible.
 
* Will:
It's not the right strategy for any market, for any customer, if with two
days of programming time to expose some simple options in the driver
software, you allow users to easily workaround bugs or allow previously
unforeseen applications to work with your card. It's not a "feature" to be
able to call an officially supported application's vendor and spend four
hours with them explaining their bug to them.

As I said I share your opinion. But it works for the target audience...
X-Plane is used by Boeing to do early design verficiation on their blended
wing future generation aircraft.

I know X-Plane, but it's usefulness in aerospace development is
extremely limited. But that's a different topic...
So that one is a perfect example of the
sheer stupidity of locking out a nice graphic card from use in any
unforeseen usage simply because of a failure to add some simple options onto
a device driver to force the use of antialias and filtering. It is simply
ridiculous that Boeing would need to convince ATI of anything in order to
get support for some application they use internally.

Why should ATI fix a problem with an application? It would be the job of
Laminar Research to fix the bugs in their software, not ATIs...
And that's reason #3 to never lock out options from a driver the way ATI is
doing: competition. Competition is not going to make the same mistakes
ATI does.

Well, as compensation Nvidia has some other problems with their G70
series of GPUs like texture flickering, and Nvidia also offers much
lower filtering quality than ATI. So neither of them is perfect...
Looks like I may be getting yet another Nvidia card when I wanted to buy ATI
but couldn't because ATI has their head stuck in a very obscure marketing
cloud. That would bring to total about 21 ATI cards I wanted to buy this
year but couldn't because ATI makes weird marketing decisions. The other
cards were because they refused to support RADEON on Windows 2003. Windows
2003 and Windows XP have basically the same core OS and drivers, so if you
have developed for XP you get Windows 2003 essentially for free.

Right, and the Catalyst drivers for XP work perfectly with Windows 2003.
"Doesn't support" does not mean "does not work"...

Benjamin
 
Benjamin Gawert said:
The difference is in the connection of several SMD resisitors which decide
if the GPU initializes as Radeon or FireGL. Basically the boards are
somewhat similar, with the FireGL usually having some differences of
course (like interface for 3D shutter glasses instead of TV out or VIVO)

The latest range of FireGL cards all have VIVO, and I think the mid range
cards have dropped 3D shutter support.

ss.
 
Benjamin Gawert said:


What would this mean to me? I don't play games (but I may play a couple,
like Medal of Honour for a little bit) and I am expecting delivery of a
FireGL V5200. The thing is that I use a couple of 3D and CAD programs that
are not FireGL certified. Will not being able to tweak those settings
possibly be a disadvantage?

ss.
 
Benjamin Gawert said:
Why should ATI fix a problem with an application? It would be the job of
Laminar Research to fix the bugs in their software, not ATIs...

Well, no one should have to fix the bug, because if the driver gave you an
option to turn on antialiasing the user could fix his own problems.

Right, and the Catalyst drivers for XP work perfectly with Windows 2003.
"Doesn't support" does not mean "does not work"...

Drivers maybe, but the installer doesn't work.

And you would think that ATI support would at least say that much:
"install the driver and don't use the installer". Instead they just look
for ways to get you to say Windows 2003, at which point they hang up. :)
 
Synapse Syndrome said:
What would this mean to me? I don't play games (but I may play a couple,
like Medal of Honour for a little bit) and I am expecting delivery of a
FireGL V5200. The thing is that I use a couple of 3D and CAD programs that
are not FireGL certified. Will not being able to tweak those settings
possibly be a disadvantage?

I'd say it is a 50/50. I have had a lot of problems with applications not
turning on antialiasing and filtering on their own, and I have always
counted on driver support to let me work around those issues. If the
FireGL driver works as Ben is suggesting, you don't have the options to
twiddle with the settings for those things. If your application does not
turn on the feature correctly, I guess you would be out of luck.
 
* Synapse Syndrome:
What would this mean to me?

That means if your program doesn't set AA/AF correctly it might not work...
I don't play games (but I may play a couple,
like Medal of Honour for a little bit) and I am expecting delivery of a
FireGL V5200. The thing is that I use a couple of 3D and CAD programs that
are not FireGL certified. Will not being able to tweak those settings
possibly be a disadvantage?

It definitely is a disadvantage.

Benjamin
 
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