Deposit on glass for framed photo

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Alan Justice

Twice now (out of many dozens of pictures framed) I've seen a cloudy deposit
on the inside of the glass over the photo (not over rag mat). It's in a
regular pattern (one was vertical fuzzy stripes, the other like the pattern
of a brain). My best guess is it's something in the ink. Cleans off fine.

Epson 2200, Epson ink. I let them dry a few days, then dry 4 minutes under
a heat press (not touching) before mounting with dry mount. I clean the
glass meticulously with Glass Plus, and use a paper backing on the frame.
I'm in a wet area (N. California coast), but it isn't moisture, as it stays
in that same pattern for weeks. No direct sunlight. Any guesses?
 
Alan said:
Twice now (out of many dozens of pictures framed) I've seen a cloudy deposit
on the inside of the glass over the photo (not over rag mat). It's in a
regular pattern (one was vertical fuzzy stripes, the other like the pattern
of a brain). My best guess is it's something in the ink. Cleans off fine.

Epson 2200, Epson ink. I let them dry a few days, then dry 4 minutes under
a heat press (not touching) before mounting with dry mount. I clean the
glass meticulously with Glass Plus, and use a paper backing on the frame.
I'm in a wet area (N. California coast), but it isn't moisture, as it stays
in that same pattern for weeks. No direct sunlight. Any guesses?
Click to expand...

I had a similar issue, and I believe in my case it was vapors from the
glass cleaner. To test that theory, I pulled the frame apart, cleaned
the glass (again) with Windex, and let it sit out in the air for
several days before reassembling the picture. The problem did not come
back.

So I'd recommend you let the freshly cleaned glass air dry for a longer
time before mounting. See if that makes a difference.
 
It's a known problem. It's the paper. If you use a RC paper or a paper with
no porus substrate, the inks don't dry. Inkjet inks almost never dry at all,
even at plain paper. It needs further drying (it is said a month) or use
your heat press (touching of course) [I suppose 10 min at 140 C could do the
job, try it]. Another choice is to change the paper. I don't know more.
 
Alan said:
Twice now (out of many dozens of pictures framed) I've seen a cloudy deposit
on the inside of the glass over the photo (not over rag mat). It's in a
regular pattern (one was vertical fuzzy stripes, the other like the pattern
of a brain). My best guess is it's something in the ink. Cleans off fine.

Epson 2200, Epson ink. I let them dry a few days, then dry 4 minutes under
a heat press (not touching) before mounting with dry mount. I clean the
glass meticulously with Glass Plus, and use a paper backing on the frame.
I'm in a wet area (N. California coast), but it isn't moisture, as it stays
in that same pattern for weeks. No direct sunlight. Any guesses?
Click to expand...


Pigment inks contain very slow evaporating "coalescing solvents" (glycol
ethers). The solvents act to slowly fuze the resin binder together
after the water has evaporated from the ink. This is why it takes time
- several days - for the printed surface to gain water and mar resistant
properties. (prints on RC photo papers straight out or the printer are
quite easily scratched, and although they have some water resistance,
after a day or so drying they are much more resistant - effectively
water proof)
These solvents take days to evaporate. If the print is framed before
they have evaporated fully, then they can condense of the glass surface.
The solution is to allow a reasonable time (perhaps a week) after
printing before framing behind glass.
 
Alan said:
Twice now (out of many dozens of pictures framed) I've seen a cloudy deposit
on the inside of the glass over the photo (not over rag mat). It's in a
regular pattern (one was vertical fuzzy stripes, the other like the pattern
of a brain). My best guess is it's something in the ink. Cleans off fine.
Click to expand...

I would love to say it is the ink if you are using generic ink but it is
most probably the paper if the ink is coming from a dye printer and and
the paper you are using is microceramic nanopourous paper. When printed
there is gas fade and that may be what you are experienceing. To reduce
this you should either let your prints dry out for a few days before
framing. You could also use a swellable type paper like Illford Galerie
Classic Pearl (still let it dry for a day or two) and you should not
experience this. But beware that papers like the Classic are not meant
for pigmented ink if that is what you are using.
Epson 2200, Epson ink.
Click to expand...

Well if you are using that you are using pigmented ink.
I let them dry a few days, then dry 4 minutes under
a heat press (not touching) before mounting with dry mount. I clean the
glass meticulously with Glass Plus, and use a paper backing on the frame.
I'm in a wet area (N. California coast), but it isn't moisture, as it stays
in that same pattern for weeks. No direct sunlight. Any guesses?
Click to expand...

I still think it is the paper.
 
measekite said:
I would love to say it is the ink if you are using generic ink but it is
most probably the paper if the ink is coming from a dye printer and and
the paper you are using is microceramic nanopourous paper. When printed
there is gas fade and that may be what you are experienceing. To reduce
this you should either let your prints dry out for a few days before
framing. You could also use a swellable type paper like Illford Galerie
Classic Pearl (still let it dry for a day or two) and you should not
experience this. But beware that papers like the Classic are not meant
for pigmented ink if that is what you are using.
Epson 2200, Epson ink.
Click to expand...

Well if you are using that you are using pigmented ink.
.....
I still think it is the paper.
Click to expand...
It's not the paper - see my post above.
The original poster should NOT use a swellable paper (like Ilford
Galerie Classic Pearl) with Epson Ultrachome inks. Apart from looking
terrible, the surface will scratch so easily that you can virtually wipe
the ink off the paper with your finger.
Gas fade is a separate and unrelated issue.
 
Thanks for all the thoughts.

I waited 3 days to two weeks after printing before mounting. I use Epson
Premium Glossy paper (is that "swellable"?), Epson ink. (I never had
significant problems with scratching using Epson inks, only with MediaStreet
ink.) I always frame immediately after cleaning the glass with Glass Plus
or Windex. I don't let the heat press touch the photo when drying (4 min.
at 190 deg.) so there is room for moisture to escape. I do that step with
dry mount under the photo. After drying I then immediately press. I use
acid-free dry mount, also press for 4 min. at 190 deg. (longer and hotter
than manufacturer-reccommended, but it just did not adhere with less. I
still get occasional bubbling months later.)

The pattern of fogging on the glass suggests it isn't just fumes from the
photo coming off: They would be relatively uniform in the space between the
photo and the glass (created by 4-ply mat), and certainly not in the bizarre
patterns I saw (vertical fuzzy bars about every inch and "brain surface"
pattern, with "sulci" a few millimeters apart). I suspect now that, even
though I let the cleaner dry "completely," any invisible residue could have
dried by contracting to a pattern, like crystals. At that point, the
fogging could be either from the cleaner alone, or from the photo. If the
latter, it deposits preferentially on the surface where there is cleaner
residue. So maybe everyone was right. My training is as a scientist, so
maybe I'll do a controlled experiment (e.g., clean only half the glass just
before framing, use fresh vs. aged photos, etc.)
 
Alan Justice said:
Thanks for all the thoughts.

I waited 3 days to two weeks after printing before mounting. I use Epson
Premium Glossy paper (is that "swellable"?), Epson ink. (I never had
significant problems with scratching using Epson inks, only with
MediaStreet
ink.) I always frame immediately after cleaning the glass with Glass Plus
or Windex. I don't let the heat press touch the photo when drying (4 min.
at 190 deg.) so there is room for moisture to escape. I do that step with
dry mount under the photo. After drying I then immediately press. I use
acid-free dry mount, also press for 4 min. at 190 deg. (longer and hotter
than manufacturer-reccommended, but it just did not adhere with less. I
still get occasional bubbling months later.)

The pattern of fogging on the glass suggests it isn't just fumes from the
photo coming off: They would be relatively uniform in the space between
the
photo and the glass (created by 4-ply mat), and certainly not in the
bizarre
patterns I saw (vertical fuzzy bars about every inch and "brain surface"
pattern, with "sulci" a few millimeters apart). I suspect now that, even
though I let the cleaner dry "completely," any invisible residue could
have
dried by contracting to a pattern, like crystals. At that point, the
fogging could be either from the cleaner alone, or from the photo. If the
latter, it deposits preferentially on the surface where there is cleaner
residue. So maybe everyone was right. My training is as a scientist, so
maybe I'll do a controlled experiment (e.g., clean only half the glass
just
before framing, use fresh vs. aged photos, etc.)
Click to expand...
Alan - I've just used a tiny amount of dishwasher soap - the type you would
put on a sponge to wash dishes - and hot water. I put the glass in the
kitchen sink and wash and rinse it there. I then dry it with an old
dishtowel, let it further air dry, and complete the framing process. You
might try a few framing jobs without the use of a glass cleaner and see if
you still see the deposits on the glass later.
 
There are several possible causes of this phenomenon.

The window cleaner has glycols in it.

The ink gasses off glycols for months after the print leaves the printer
(especially with Ultrachrome inks)

The way glass is manufactured today, and especially inexpensive glass,
it is rolled between two metal rollers to make the sheet. These rollers
are oiled to keep the glass from sticking. This oil can get integrated
into the surface of the glass causing both a pattern and sometimes a
slight undulation in the surface. It usually is only visible under
certain lighting angles, or when it is partially damp.

Art
 
Very helpful. I'll try the paper drying method. But I'm still suspect that
it's straight gassing because the fog is in patterns on the glass, not
random fog.
 
A drop of inkjet ink onto a flat surface doesn't dry even after months. Some
inks dry in two months some others after six months. The same happens to the
paper. The ink doesn't dry. It is drying very slowly. If the paper has a
back substrate that is not gas permeable, the gas that is produced through
drying, can't escape through the back side of the paper so it escapes from
the front side. Then because the gas is entraped between the print and the
glass it is condensed in any place.
It is reported a same problem from a customer using aftermarket
(specifically pigment) inks. He covered the prints (heat seal) with thin
plastic. After a week the plastic unglued from the prints and he saw liquid
behind the plastic.

--

Yianni
(e-mail address removed) (áöáéñÝóôå ôïí áñéèìü åííéÜ áðü ôï email)


Alan Justice said:
Very helpful. I'll try the paper drying method. But I'm still suspect
that
it's straight gassing because the fog is in patterns on the glass, not
random fog.
Click to expand...
 
In my experience, the "fog" actually appears as the printed image. The
more dense the ink laid down the more fog. It tends to transfer to the
glass very near the paper surface. There isn't a lot of room for
circulation between a print and the glass, even with several thicknesses
of mats.

Art

Alan said:
Very helpful. I'll try the paper drying method. But I'm still suspect that
it's straight gassing because the fog is in patterns on the glass, not
random fog.
Click to expand...
 
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