defrag no time limit

  • Thread starter Thread starter Guest
  • Start date Start date
G

Guest

Why does defrag not show you a bar telling how far along degrag is in
completing its work? It just leaves the front end there with a sign
saying"this may take from a few minutes to a few hours. Dud. Suppose I want
to wait five minutes but not five hours??


Rober Hale
 
Robert Hale said:
Why does defrag not show you a bar telling how far along degrag is in
completing its work? It just leaves the front end there with a sign
saying"this may take from a few minutes to a few hours. Dud. Suppose I want
to wait five minutes but not five hours??


Rober Hale
 
I agree that it should at least show the percentage done and it also should
let you see how badly it is fragmented. XP showed it..all other versions
showed it...why can't vista show it? Another bad thing is that when you click
on defrag, it automatically analyzes your system. This slows down the
process again too. To me, it is another case of microsoft wanting to control
everything.
 
In Vista, the defrag is designed to work in the background, just schedule
the time you want it to run and forget it. It has been changed to run when
the system is idle and to pause when the system is in use.

Take a look at the following pages for complete information.

http://blogs.technet.com/filecab/default.aspx

http://blogs.technet.com/filecab/pages/disk-defragmenter-faq.aspx

http://blogs.technet.com/filecab/archive/tags/Disk+Defragmenter/default.aspx

http://blogs.technet.com/filecab/archive/2006/10/19/a-quick-note-about-defrag-exe-parameters.aspx
 
In message <[email protected]> Robert
Hale said:
Why does defrag not show you a bar telling how far along degrag is in
completing its work? It just leaves the front end there with a sign
saying"this may take from a few minutes to a few hours. Dud. Suppose I want
to wait five minutes but not five hours??

Because it isn't possible to accurately predict how far along a
defragmentation is.

More importantly, it reduces the user inclination to sit there and wait
for it to finish, or avoid using your PC while defragmenting.

Either defrag or don't (it runs automatically on a schedule anyway),
keep using your PC or don't, whatever makes you happier, but it
generally won't make a difference on e way or the other as far as Vista
is concerned.
 
You make this sound really sinister. Microsoft certainly doesn't want to
control the defragmenting of your hard drive. It's just been moved to a
background process because of requests.

Watching the defrag program work has always seemed to me like watching the
grass grow or paint dry.

If you must see this, you can see most of the information at a command
prompt.

Open a command prompt and type defrag /? for the syntax of the possible
commands.
 
defrag does not run automatically on a schedule unless you tell it to. I am
in the computer repair business and I find it necessary to see the
fragmentation of the hard drive of all my clients and future clients. If I
can see how badly a computer is fragmented, it will then tell me in my mind
that the client does not know anything about this program and I will then
teach them about it. Some computers run slow after defragging and by being
able to see the fragmentation level, I can also run other checks to see what
it slowing it down. To me, seeing file fragments is a must requirement.
Again, Microsoft is trying to take control.

Based on past experiences with computers, I've found that defragging is a
requirment to keep the system healthy. Not defragging can lead to
unrecoverable hive errors thus making drive replacement necessary. So far,
Vista is a joke. XP was the better of the 2 operating systems. Vista
reminds me so much of Win-Me...another dud!
 
In message <[email protected]> Rick
Kirchoff said:
defrag does not run automatically on a schedule unless you tell it to.

On Vista, it does.
I am
in the computer repair business and I find it necessary to see the
fragmentation of the hard drive of all my clients and future clients.

From an elevated command line, "defrag c: -a"
If I
can see how badly a computer is fragmented, it will then tell me in my mind
that the client does not know anything about this program and I will then
teach them about it.

Better yet, don't -- Let Windows take care of it. Let the computer work
for you, don't work for the computer.
Some computers run slow after defragging and by being
able to see the fragmentation level, I can also run other checks to see what
it slowing it down. To me, seeing file fragments is a must requirement.
Again, Microsoft is trying to take control.

If defragmenting slows things down past a reboot (to let any odd file
caching weirdness clear out), you're using the wrong defragmentation
tool.
Based on past experiences with computers, I've found that defragging is a
requirment to keep the system healthy.

Which is exactly why it runs by default automatically.
 
Rick Kirchoff said:
I am in the computer repair business and I find it necessary to see the
fragmentation of the hard drive of all my clients and future clients.
Based on past experiences with computers, I've found that defragging is a
requirment to keep the system healthy. Not defragging can lead to
unrecoverable hive errors thus making drive replacement necessary. So
far,
Vista is a joke. XP was the better of the 2 operating systems. Vista
reminds me so much of Win-Me...another dud!

There is no such thing as "unrecoverable hive errors thus making drive
replacement necessary". A reinstall is all that's needed. You should NOT be
taking money for repair and advice. Shame on you!

mi
 
In message <[email protected]> "miss-information"
There is no such thing as "unrecoverable hive errors thus making drive
replacement necessary". A reinstall is all that's needed. You should NOT be
taking money for repair and advice. Shame on you!

Not only that, but fragmentation wouldn't impact it anyway.
 
miss-information said:
There is no such thing as "unrecoverable hive errors thus making drive
replacement necessary". A reinstall is all that's needed. You should NOT be
taking money for repair and advice. Shame on you!

mi

Shame on me?!? I run a business...not a volunteer service. I have clients
that know nothing about computers and they demand that their systems run as
expected. It is apparent that you've never encountered any hive errors that
were unrecoverable. I have and not just once. I've tried using the recovery
option of xp but it does not always work. Recovery-v-drive replacement is
50-50. I've also tried recovering from fatal errors using Gibson Research's
Spinrite but it does not always recover and it usually requires a minimum of
4-5 days to recover, depending on the size of the hard drive, which is
something that alot of my clients do not have. Many are accountants,
lawyers, and doctors. I also use the hard drive manufacturers diagnostics as
well as support from their technicians. I don't like to replace hard drives
but sometimes, you have to do it and in the long run, time is money and time
is also the difference of keeping a client or losing them.
 
I see now that you're the village know-it-all. Sorry if I have popped your
bubble but my findings are supported by military technicians. They probably
don't know as much as you know but they're alot more intuitive about it.

Since you believe that fragmentation has no impact, then why have the defrag
program at all? Why not listen to yourself for a change? I guess Microsoft
is wrong as well and so are many other techs too. Oh...I forgot, you're
always right. Excuuuuuse me!
 
To replace a drive because the Registry is corrupt is moronic. Too bad your
customers have to pay for your (a) deceit or (b) ignorance, or both. It's a
simple procedure to boot with a recovery CD. Bart PE, Ultimate Boot CD or a
Linux live CD e.g. Ubuntu, and pull important data files off. Then reinstall
the OS. Time 2 hours. Software errors don't break hardware, MORON.

mi
 
In message <[email protected]> Rick
Kirchoff said:
I see now that you're the village know-it-all. Sorry if I have popped your
bubble but my findings are supported by military technicians. They probably
don't know as much as you know but they're alot more intuitive about it.

Since you believe that fragmentation has no impact, then why have the defrag
program at all? Why not listen to yourself for a change? I guess Microsoft
is wrong as well and so are many other techs too. Oh...I forgot, you're
always right. Excuuuuuse me!

Fragmentation causes a performance impact, not a reliability impact
(Although recovering a corrupt drive is substantially harder if it's
fragmented)
 
Fragmentation causes a performance impact, not a reliability impact
(Although recovering a corrupt drive is substantially harder if it's
fragmented)

There are three aspects to fragmentation, defragging, and reliability.

1) Recoverability

As DevilsPGD says, the less fragmented the file system, the better the
data recovery will be if you are forced to assume the linkage of
cluster chains/runs from a first-cluster starting point.

On a FATxx volume, losing both copies of the FAT will force you to
work from an assumption of unfragmented runs. You can deduce
break-points, but it's tedious guesswork at best. Best results are
where the cluster size is larger than the file size ;-)

On an NTFS volume, there's no table of cluster addresses; instead, a
series of start and length entries define the cluster runs
(unfragmented chain segments) that comprise the file's data stream.

I don't know NTFS well enough to speculate on the likelyhood of
knowing the start cluster for a file from the directory entry, yet
losing the run segment info, but another unwanted side-effect of
fragmentation suggests itself; an increasing bulk of space needed to
hold the additional start, length entries.

2) Corruption risk of fragmentation

The longer it takes to update the file system, the greater the risk of
corruption from events that might interrupt the process. Think of
this as "size on the dartboard of time", with crashes etc. as the
darts that get thrown at the board.

The worst-case scenario is a slowly-growing directory containing lots
of items that is frequently updated )and thus perhaps "always in use"
so it is never defragged). This would be like the whole of the "20"
on the dart board, and it's quite easy to hit a "20".

Now if that long fragmmented chain was defragged so that it could be
operated on more quickly, it would be like the "double-20" on the
dartboard; a far smaller target for the arrows (OK, darts) of chance.

3) Corruption risk of DEfragmentation

The defrag process is inherently risky, as it involves reading
potentially "everything" off HD into RAM and then writing it back
somewhere else. That's a lot of disk-heating activity, and if RAM
throws 1 in 100 000 errors, that's a lot of corrupted file contents
and clusters written back to the wrong places on the disk. UGLY.

I see (3) as a far more significant risk than (2), and thus I see
defragging as like an hour-long workout in the gym; a great way to
make a healthy system fitter, but potentially lethal for the infirm.

So not only is defragging close to irrelevant in terms of reliability,
is is actively contra-indicated in unreliable systems.

Defrag is NOT a trouble-shooting tool !!


-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Hmmm... what was the *other* idea?
 
I use auslogic's free defragger and it works far better than the pay
versions.

IMO, being able to view the fragmented files shows me the maintenance of the
computer. It may not show this to you...that is your problem. I use it as
part of a troubleshooting package and will continue to do so irregardless of
what the village genius's may believe.

Since we're talking opinions, it is my opinion to stay away from Vista
entirely. It is nothing more than pure junk. It is worse than Win-Me.
 
On Sun, 1 Apr 2007 10:59:01 -0700, Rick Kirchoff
I use auslogic's free defragger and it works far better than the pay
versions.

Better in what way? I'm not being confrontational here, it's just
that different folks look for different things.

Some look at whether files are degragmented, or whether the free space
is moved to the end. Others look at the speed of the boot process,
application loads etc. after the defrag is done. Others value a fast
defrag process, even if it may not boost performance as much.

So the strategy can be "good" on one criterion, but "bad" on another.

For example, the original Win95 and DOS logic was to:
- ensure all files were contiguous
- move free space to the end
- (some) move directories to the front

Then came Win98, where the strategy changed towards identifying which
*parts* of which files were accessed most often, and move those to the
front, even if this broke the larger file into separate fragments with
a fair amount of head travel between them.

If viewed by Win95-era logic, or the desire for pure defragmentation
(say, to aid recoverability or before a resizing operation), then the
newer strategy is "bad". If viewed against the criterion of "how fast
does the OS and apps startup?", the newer approach may be "good".

If an add-on defragger applies the newer logic, then how does it
identify what code sections are most often used? Does it harvest the
..PF info built by the OS, or run its own background service to track
what is used most often, etc.?

If it runs its own service, then how stable is this, what is the
performance impact, and what is the quality of the code (i.e. how sure
are we that it is not an exploitable surface)?
IMO, being able to view the fragmented files shows me the maintenance of the
computer. It may not show this to you...that is your problem.

Yes, that's all I wanted when I found this defragger; a volume usage
mapper for Vista, so I could see whether the black-box "trust me, I'd
a defragger" Vista defrag was actually doing anything sensible -
noting that strategy variations make this hard to assess.


------------ ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Rudeness is human nature's way of curbing demand
 
Back
Top