CPU speed: new computer necessary?

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sinister

The comp tech guys often suggest that people get new computers. My attitude
is that often slowness is often the result of too little RAM.

For CPUs, how slow is too slow? Context here is just the usual
not-intensive apps: email, web browser, some simple documents and
spreadsheets.

I have an 800 MHz PIII at home, and it seems fine. (Doesn't hurt that I
have 512 MB RAM.) At work, I've been using machines that are even
slower---550 MHz---and they still seem fine (after I dumped more RAM into
them).

Of course, the stock line is that "computers are so cheap these days, you
might as well get a new computer." But given that prices seem to have a
floor, if you replace every two years, you're spending about twice as much
money as replacing every four years. Not to mention that ordering and
dumping more RAM into a machine seems a lot simpler than ordering an entire
computer, migrating the HD contents, ...

Cheers.
 
sinister said:
The comp tech guys often suggest that people get new computers. My attitude
is that often slowness is often the result of too little RAM.

For CPUs, how slow is too slow? Context here is just the usual
not-intensive apps: email, web browser, some simple documents and
spreadsheets.

I have an 800 MHz PIII at home, and it seems fine. (Doesn't hurt that I
have 512 MB RAM.) At work, I've been using machines that are even
slower---550 MHz---and they still seem fine (after I dumped more RAM into
them).

Of course, the stock line is that "computers are so cheap these days, you
might as well get a new computer." But given that prices seem to have a
floor, if you replace every two years, you're spending about twice as much
money as replacing every four years. Not to mention that ordering and
dumping more RAM into a machine seems a lot simpler than ordering an entire
computer, migrating the HD contents, ...

Cheers.

I'd agree that 500MHz is quite enough for any normal home use if its
got enough RAM. Older machines tend to come with not enough RAM, but
all you need is a deadun to take the RAM from and it should be fine.
Even done real time 3d animation on 500MHz, though that is pushing it a
bit.

The thing with upgrading is a new machine will have not just more rAM
but better all round, so upgrading is an inherently limited exercise.

If youre frugal with your apps its possible to run far slower machines
effectively. I still do one job on a 75MHz, it does it effortlessly so
no reason to upgrade.


NT
 
sinister said:
The comp tech guys often suggest that people get new computers. My
attitude is that often slowness is often the result of too little RAM.

For CPUs, how slow is too slow? Context here is just the usual
not-intensive apps: email, web browser, some simple documents and
spreadsheets.

I have an 800 MHz PIII at home, and it seems fine. (Doesn't hurt that I
have 512 MB RAM.) At work, I've been using machines that are even
slower---550 MHz---and they still seem fine (after I dumped more RAM into
them).

Of course, the stock line is that "computers are so cheap these days, you
might as well get a new computer." But given that prices seem to have a
floor, if you replace every two years, you're spending about twice as much
money as replacing every four years. Not to mention that ordering and
dumping more RAM into a machine seems a lot simpler than ordering an
entire computer, migrating the HD contents, ...

Cheers.

Depends what you are doing, I had a Cryix MII 300 untill 9 months ago, and
that was
too slow to do certain things such as play certain types of video media
files.
Those machine would be 6-10 time faster than my old one at multimedia!!
I now have a sempron 3000 now, it is considerably faster :O)
I aso have over 1 meg of RAM, more than I need but its nice to have more
than less!!
 
sinister said:
The comp tech guys often suggest that people get new computers. My attitude
is that often slowness is often the result of too little RAM.

When cost of repair exceeds half the cost of new machine, is where I
tell people to get a new one. It's those sub $400 computers that
undercut the repair and upgrade market. For those who can do basic
maintenence and upgrades themselves, their machines tend to have a
longer lifecycle.


For CPUs, how slow is too slow? Context here is just the usual
not-intensive apps: email, web browser, some simple documents and
spreadsheets.
Anything below a pentium 1, in that context.

Not a joke. Of course, BIG spreadsheets and BIG doucuments need more
cpu and RAM.
 
The comp tech guys often suggest that people get new computers. My attitude
is that often slowness is often the result of too little RAM.

Often: yes
Always: no

It has to be taken on a case-by-case basis.

For CPUs, how slow is too slow? Context here is just the usual
not-intensive apps: email, web browser, some simple documents and
spreadsheets.


That's largely a matter of personal use/habits. These
things could be done acceptibly on any system new enough to
support the amount of memory required to keep all operating
system and application data in memory instead of paged to
disk.

In other words, some people might be able to use a decent
(not low-end all-integrated) Pentium 2 /233MHz, but would
notice the speedup going to a CPU with 100MHz FSB & Memory,
(late K6-300 or Pentium 2/350), and notice another plateau
of improvement moving closer to 1GHz. More than 1GHz CPU is
not needed for these tasks in general, unless one of them
was atypically needy, like viewing video online, or giant
documents (especially non-100%-zoomed-PDF scrolling).

Often if someone has only these basic needs, the more
significant factor is system age as it relates to stability
or failure, particularly if it wasn't built with good parts
initially (like fans, PSU and motherboard), or if it were
subject to dirty environment like dust clogging up PSU or
heatsinks, or cigarette smoke fouling electrical contacts).

Some are better than others though, some of the most popular
early Pentium 2 systems with Intel motherboards are still
running fine today as they had very good construction and
low current/higher-voltage, quality capacitors and more
tantalum/other solid caps in use still... this was before
the environmentalists and anti-millitant types started their
campaigns againt tantalum mining, funding guerrilla warfare,
etc.

I have an 800 MHz PIII at home, and it seems fine. (Doesn't hurt that I
have 512 MB RAM.) At work, I've been using machines that are even
slower---550 MHz---and they still seem fine (after I dumped more RAM into
them).

Many people do still use machines of that era, and want
nothing but to keep them running as cheaply as possible.
Some do break though, and if the user (or a friend) doesn't
have the technical ability and desire to find and fix any
faults, it can be cost prohibitive to spend (perhaps) $150
to fix a system with only 30% of it's expected lifespan
remaining, when that $150 could go towards a newer system
with it's whole life ahead of it. Plus, some types of
failures are more problematic than others, for example a
hard drive failure may wipe out ALL of the user's data, and
they should have been making backups but might not have done
so in a timely manner. In other words, on a well built
system that was maintained properly too (dust cleaned out
and "if" sleeve bearing fans, they were relubed every few
years), the hard drive would fail before the board and PSU,
unless these latter parts had a particular defect.

Once the drive fails, again it is a technical issue of how
to get it running - some boards won't even recognize today's
modern capacity HDDs, and if you told someone they needed to
flash their bios if possible, they'd look at you like you're
speaking Greek... and again it becomes a matter of whether
they can get it done cost-effectively in addition to the
purchase of the new hard drive.

Of course, the stock line is that "computers are so cheap these days, you
might as well get a new computer."

Sometimes it's true, but personally I value the data more
than the systems, and considering that you can get a
barebones OEM system from the P2-P3 era at surplus 'sites
for under $100, it's still a matter of time to set it up,
install applications, etc- if those apps are even licensed
or installable on another system.

But given that prices seem to have a
floor, if you replace every two years, you're spending about twice as much
money as replacing every four years.

Non-applicable, anyone doing the tasks described above
should not need to replace every two or four years. If they
find their system failing in that interval, it would tend to
suggest they bought something TOO cheap, too many corners
cut and they encountered a failure mode as a result.
Typically in real-world terms this means to avoid the
cheapest things sold by most local shops- systems built with
generic came-with-case PSU, came-with-case or profit-leader
generic fans, PCChips/et al. motherboard, generic heatsink
(fan), or a poor case that overheats everything. Knowing
where to spend the extra 20% or so to improve the weakest
areas, most common failure points, may distinguish a system
that lasts for a decade from one that is trash in less than
half that.

BUT, some people really do need more performance, or just
want something faster for vanity's sake, or to keep up with
the Joneses, or because they heard WinXP is what they need
(and is "sometimes", somewhat true) and has a higher
hardware requirement.
Not to mention that ordering and
dumping more RAM into a machine seems a lot simpler than ordering an entire
computer, migrating the HD contents, ...

Maybe, but in general I seldom recommend upgrading ram
instead of outfitting the system with (that much) it in the
first place. IF someone went cheap and didn't get enough
memory at first, sure it makes sense to upgrade ram
sometimes, IF it's reasonable to believe the system would
otherwise remain viable for long enough to get the value out
of the memory upgrade.

So in summary we're back to what I first wrote;
It has to be taken on a case-by-case basis.
 
Bazzer Smith said:
Depends what you are doing, I had a Cryix MII 300 untill 9 months ago, and
that was
too slow to do certain things such as play certain types of video media
files.

Media is the one thing that the newer boxes probably do a lot better.
 
When cost of repair exceeds half the cost of new machine, is where I
tell people to get a new one. It's those sub $400 computers that
undercut the repair and upgrade market. For those who can do basic
maintenence and upgrades themselves, their machines tend to have a
longer lifecycle.

You're right about those $400.

In the most recent case of the tech guys telling me to get a new machine,
the guy was complaining (in a non-whining way) that it was taking too long
to install some software. I would have thought that installing software is
one thing that is not CPU-bound, so I'm not sure I believe him.
Anything below a pentium 1, in that context.

This particular machine was PIII 550 MHz, with 512 MB RAM.
Not a joke. Of course, BIG spreadsheets and BIG doucuments need more
cpu and RAM.

For my home box, I upgraded from a P1 200 MHz box years ago when I needed
more RAM, because the mb was limited to 64 MB.

<snip>
 
kony said:
Often: yes
Always: no

It has to be taken on a case-by-case basis.
Right.



That's largely a matter of personal use/habits. These
things could be done acceptibly on any system new enough to
support the amount of memory required to keep all operating
system and application data in memory instead of paged to
disk.

That's what I thought.

Some are better than others though, some of the most popular
early Pentium 2 systems with Intel motherboards are still
running fine today as they had very good construction and
low current/higher-voltage, quality capacitors and more
tantalum/other solid caps in use still... this was before
the environmentalists and anti-millitant types started their
campaigns againt tantalum mining, funding guerrilla warfare,
etc.

There goes my "if it doesn't have a moving part, it can't fail" perception.

<snip>

Thanks for your long detailed reply.
 
sinister said:
You're right about those $400.

In the most recent case of the tech guys telling me to get a new machine,
the guy was complaining (in a non-whining way) that it was taking too long
to install some software. I would have thought that installing software is
one thing that is not CPU-bound, so I'm not sure I believe him.


Installing software DEFINATELY goes guicker on faster machines. Acrobat
7 is one of the extreme cases.
 
In the most recent case of the tech guys telling me to get a new machine,
the guy was complaining (in a non-whining way) that it was taking too long
to install some software. I would have thought that installing software is
one thing that is not CPU-bound, so I'm not sure I believe him.


This is true, it can take longer to install things, but they
might have had a mental block instead, guys that work with
hardware every day- particularly building new systems, can
be pretty snobbish about old systems and just assume it's
going to be slow ahead of time thus every little hesitation
they perceive as the fault of the old technology... which is
true but maybe also psychologically exaggerated.
 
Bazzer Smith:
Depends what you are doing, I had a Cryix MII 300 untill 9 months ago, and
that was
too slow to do certain things such as play certain types of video media
files.

Are you sure it wasnt an OS/app/etc problem? I ask as 300MHz is way
above what I'd call minimum for multimedia. (I'm assuming it didnt have
a dvdrom.)


(e-mail address removed):
Anything below a pentium 1, in that context.

Not a joke. Of course, BIG spreadsheets and BIG doucuments need more
cpu and RAM.

Faster P1s are fine, but a low end P1 is pushing it for web browsing.
They do it but... if you want to avoid sluggishness and delays, turn
images off, keep number of windows low, accept many moments of
nonresponsiveness, close other apps, otherwise its going to get slow.
Slower P1s are likely to need more RAM to behave decently too, 16M just
isnt good with a modern tabbed browser.


sinister:
In the most recent case of the tech guys telling me to get a new machine,
the guy was complaining (in a non-whining way) that it was taking too long
to install some software. I would have thought that installing software is
one thing that is not CPU-bound, so I'm not sure I believe him.

This particular machine was PIII 550 MHz, with 512 MB RAM.

The slowth may have been caused by various software issues rather than
anything to do with hardware. Used machines have often strayed off the
path of health and wellbeing, being brought to their knees by piles of
bloated junk and unwantedware.

I say this especially as 550/512 is enough to run any standard app just
fine, but there isnt the same margin there for handling messed up
software that there is with a new machine.


(e-mail address removed):
Installing software DEFINATELY goes guicker on faster machines. Acrobat
7 is one of the extreme cases.

This illustrates well the situation with old machines. You can either
install the bloat and get a new puter, or pick clean apps that run fine
on what youve got. I would not use acrobat unless it was needed, Foxit
pdf reader is >10 times faster. Its this accumulation of bloat that
brings old machines to their knees, then the user thinks they need a
new one, overlooking that it ran fine when they got it, and its still
running the same hardware. IMHO there is nowhere near enough discussion
of apps' cleanness/messiness on software & review sites.


NT
 
Bazzer Smith:


Are you sure it wasnt an OS/app/etc problem? I ask as 300MHz is way
above what I'd call minimum for multimedia. (I'm assuming it didnt have
a dvdrom.)


"Certain types" of video media won't even play well on a
1GHz CPU, let alone a 300MHz Cyrix. It might play some low
resolution MPEG1/2 files ok, particularly if the video card
has some hardware assistance, but even then throw in some
MP3 audio and the two simultaneous realtime loads may be too
much.
 
Bazzer Smith:


Are you sure it wasnt an OS/app/etc problem? I ask as 300MHz is way
above what I'd call minimum for multimedia. (I'm assuming it didnt have
a dvdrom.)


(e-mail address removed):



Faster P1s are fine, but a low end P1 is pushing it for web browsing.
They do it but... if you want to avoid sluggishness and delays, turn
images off, keep number of windows low, accept many moments of
nonresponsiveness, close other apps, otherwise its going to get slow.
Slower P1s are likely to need more RAM to behave decently too, 16M just
isnt good with a modern tabbed browser.

You can go online with a 486 running win95 and ie 5.5, as long as you
got the RAM. But the list of sites you can visit without trouble
shrinks dramaticly. I think there are still archived older vesions of
Opera availible to download.

The Oldest machine I've ever gotten online was a 17year old Mac, (last
year), just to see if it could be done. It was a Dog (as expected),
but it actually worked. There was a big image rendering bottleneck, of
course.
 
You can go online with a 486 running win95 and ie 5.5, as long as you
got the RAM. But the list of sites you can visit without trouble
shrinks dramaticly. I think there are still archived older vesions of
Opera availible to download.

The Oldest machine I've ever gotten online was a 17year old Mac, (last
year), just to see if it could be done. It was a Dog (as expected),
but it actually worked. There was a big image rendering bottleneck, of
course.

Images is one luxury I think I would have shed there. :)

IIRC New Deal OS claimed it would get a 286 on the web, the trouble was
they were attempting to sell the software (when 286s were being junked)
for more than the cost of a used P1 system, so it was an inevitable
failure. Had they sold the OS with its suite of apps for £5 they might
have had lots of takers. It was a very odd business decision to ask a
price no-one would even consider paying.


NT
 
Images is one luxury I think I would have shed there. :)

IIRC New Deal OS claimed it would get a 286 on the web, the trouble was
they were attempting to sell the software (when 286s were being junked)
for more than the cost of a used P1 system, so it was an inevitable
failure. Had they sold the OS with its suite of apps for £5 they might
have had lots of takers. It was a very odd business decision to ask a
price no-one would even consider paying.
They're still around.

http://www.breadbox.com/products.asp
 
sinister said:
Media is the one thing that the newer boxes probably do a lot better.

Yea that is the thing which forced me to upgrade, that and the poker site I
use
which gobbles up most of my CPU power for no apparent reason (other sites
use much less CPU time).
By the way I would recommend more than 512 RAM, I started with 256 but
noticed
a good improvement when I bought an extra 1 GIG, even though now 745 meg is
free it means
about 512 is being used, so I guess you are just about OK really. I just
like to have plenty spare :O)
 
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