Consumer grade color laser jet vs. Commercial printing

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mikedunny

Is there any way I can get close to a professional print quality with a
HP 1500L color laser jet printer?

I'm scanning a photo-quality, glossy cd cover and trying to reproduce
it using glossy cd paper.
But all of my prints look nowhere near the quality of a photograph.

I've heard about Descreening the image when scanning, and I've been
saving it as a TIFF using RGB color and it still is not up to snuff.

Am I just kidding myself thinking I'm going to get a professional
quality print using a conusmer grade printer?

Any suggestions welcome!

Mike
 
Of course, you already asked permission of the copyright owner of the CD
cover to make this copy, haven't you?

"consumer grade printers" in the right hands, can produce absolutely
stunning results.

Maybe it is just karma? ;-)

Art
 
I couldn't disagree more. I have seen (and produced myself) absolutely
knock your socks off results from "consumer" grade printers.

The same head technology used in consumer printer is also used in
professional printers.

Although the software used can make a difference, the biggest 'defect'
in the work flow is usually the operator ;-)

Art

PS: It also helps to know how to use a scanner properly in this case.
 
Is there any way I can get close to a professional print quality with a
HP 1500L color laser jet printer?

I'm scanning a photo-quality, glossy cd cover and trying to reproduce
it using glossy cd paper.
But all of my prints look nowhere near the quality of a photograph.

I've heard about Descreening the image when scanning, and I've been
saving it as a TIFF using RGB color and it still is not up to snuff.

Am I just kidding myself thinking I'm going to get a professional
quality print using a conusmer grade printer?

Any suggestions welcome!

Mike
Click to expand...

Various questions:

What model scanner. What's the DPI?

Does the cover really need to be descreened? If you look at it under a
magnifying glass, I've found that while most of them do need to be
descreened (i.e. look like a newspaper print - visible dots), some
covers these days do /not/ need to be descreened, and are actually
high photo quality.

What kind of paper? When you say 'glossy CD paper', are you using
inkjet template cards? This will definitely not produce good results.
Your best bet is to use a glossy laser paper, such as Hammermill's
Color Laser Gloss or HP's laser brochure or laser photo paper.

Consumer lasers these days can do an excellent job, however, for truly
outstanding, high gloss photo prints, an inkjet is probably a better
bet. Spray the print afterwards with a UV coat to increase durability
and fade resistance.

--

http://www.FenrirOnline.com

Computer services, custom metal etching,
arts, crafts, and much more.
 
Arthur said:
I couldn't disagree more. I have seen (and produced myself) absolutely
knock your socks off results from "consumer" grade printers.

The same head technology used in consumer printer is also used in
professional printers.
Click to expand...
That should have read: The same heads and drum technologies used in
consumer printers is also used in professional printers.

I have used color laser and photocopier output to produce limited
edition art prints. Not all laser printers produce the same quality,
however. Maximum DPI can determine gradient levels. Toner quality can
effect tonal range. Use of a RIP can alter the output.

Use of proper paper can make a big difference, but understanding how to
scan a screened image and the type of scanner used can also be critical
in this type of translation.

Can you get access to the original artwork rather than an offset printed
version of the work?


Art
 
In message said:
Is there any way I can get close to a professional print quality with a
HP 1500L color laser jet printer?

I'm scanning a photo-quality, glossy cd cover and trying to reproduce
it using glossy cd paper.
But all of my prints look nowhere near the quality of a photograph.
I've heard about Descreening the image when scanning, and I've been
saving it as a TIFF using RGB color and it still is not up to snuff.
Am I just kidding myself thinking I'm going to get a professional
quality print using a conusmer grade printer?
Any suggestions welcome!
Click to expand...

Glossy CD paper? For a laser? I haven't heard of such a beast.

How big (pixels) is your scan of the image? How similar to the original
does it look on screen? How big are you trying to print it.

5Star do quite a decent glossy laser paper. I've used quite a bit of
Hp's soft glossy which is a bit thicker but slightly creamier than the
5Star. If you can get Data Copy papers where you are they have a very
nice laser glossy paper at 160gsm. The other paper to recommend is
Xerox - they have glossy options in their colortech range - I've used
their 130/135 gsm paper successfully.
 
Really?

How do you think printers create color gradients? Do you think they
have every color mixed up in the toner cartridges... maybe 16 million
little color toner cartridges, all this unique colors...

Try creating 8 shades of green within a one inch square with a 1 dpi
machine.

Art
 
(rude top posting corrected)

Arthur Entlich said:
Really?

How do you think printers create color gradients? Do you think they
have every color mixed up in the toner cartridges... maybe 16 million
little color toner cartridges, all this unique colors...

Try creating 8 shades of green within a one inch square with a 1 dpi
machine.

Art
Click to expand...

With color laser printing, more dots does not automatically equal
better. I can show you a 400dpi print that knocks the socks off of a
1200 dpi print from a different machine.

That you don't know that, doesn't surprise me.
 
Since we've been through this only 6 or so months ago, last time
speaking about grey scale (black and white) laser printers, that time,
and I wasted my time trying to explain it then, I will just repeat the
posting again. (in a rude top posting, no less)... perception of number
of colors represented in a non-continuous tone printing process is
directly related to the dot resolution of the printer, particularly in a
laser printer which uses relatively opaque colorants.

Certainly, sloppy drivers, poor distribution of the dots due to a bad
the screening formula, smearing, banding or poor dot accuracy, can muddy
an image, but all things being equal, and even some things not being
equal, gradient levels and color accuracy are related to dot size and
resolution.

Although not accurate that this is "only in one bit machines", in a
basic sense, each toner color a laser printer prints is nearly one bit
color depth, in that the color application isn't given a great deal of
variation, although dot size and shape and to some extend density, can
be varied. Laser printers just aren't continuous tone devices and as
such, higher resolution of the dots will continue to determine ability
to make effective gradients.

To repeat the explanation from 6 months ago:

Although your message appears to have gotten scrambled, even if I try to
translate it, it still doesn't seem to make sense relative to what I am
speaking of.

The number of greyscale levels perceivable on a black and white laser
printer image are DIRECTLY related to the resolution of the printer.
Laser printers use screens or error diffusion of other dot patterns to
create a greyscale level in a "cell". Since a laser printer, in theory,
can only produce one binary condition per dot position (either on
(black) or off (white)), the perceived greyscale is directly determined
by the number of combinations or percentage of on or off dots within an
area that can be produced. Since humans are the viewers, viewing
distance and visual acuity determine at what point we blur an area into
a continuous tone, whether it is or not in fact. Very few printing
techniques are true continuous tone. Photographic images and dye sub are
probably the closest.

Inkjet, laser, etc are not, as they can only lay down one density of
color per dot based upon their inks or toners. Some can make larger or
smaller dots, but very few other than dye sub actually have varying
density of ink per location.

Getting back to B&W lasers, if a cell were 2 dots by two dots, as an
example, the options would be:

4 black
3 black one white
2 black 2 white
1 black 3 white
4 white

or five steps from pure black to white.

If the cell were made up of smaller dots and it was 3 dots by 3 dots,
that same area could represent several more levels from black to white.

If that same area were able to have 16 dot in each direction, or a total
of 256 dots which could either be black or white, the number of
perceived greyscale patterns would increase still further.

Therefore, in black and white laser printing, the resolution directly
determines the perceived number of greyscale levels the printer can
represent.

Art
 
The paper surface is always covered by toner and the glossy i
determined by toner not glossy paper. You may try HP CLJ 1600 or 260
corresponding to their new type toner, ColorSphere. HP says it i
possible to improve 40% but I think it is not so remarkable
 
Arthur Entlich said:
perception of number
of colors represented in a non-continuous tone printing process is
directly related to the dot resolution of the printer,
Click to expand...

....but not solely related to the dot resolution of the printer.

You've refused to accept that in the past, and you refuse to accept it
now.
 
The paper surface used can alter the appearance of the toner surface,
since the toner coating is rather thin. Glossy, coated surfaces trend
to be quite flat, while matte papers may have a fairly obvious surface
texture.

Also, some color laser printers use different fuser temperature (by
changing the speed the paper is sent through the fuser) or quantity of
fuser oil, depending on the paper surface or thickness.

As you mention the formula and type of plastic and pigment used in the
toner can also cause a variation of the surface of the applied toner.
However, one problem with glossy paper with lustre or matte toner is
that since toner distribution is not even on a laser printer image
(white areas contain no toner, or very minimal amounts, while very dark
areas may be have 100 per cent coverage) the paper surface may in some
areas be uncovered by toner. With a different paper surface than toner
surface, if you look at the image at anything other than directly on,
and in certain lighting, even then, you will see the surface
differential fairly obviously.

Since I mainly print on matte surface papers and card stocks I prefer
toners that are equally matte so the surface intermingle well.

Art
 
I'm not playing.

Dot size and resolution is a principle factors that can be considered
when looking at laser printer specs, in regard to greyscale or color
gradients. I always suggest people ultimately use their eyes when at
all possible to determine the quality of a printer's output, but the
specs can help to narrow down the process, especially in laser printers,
which have lower control over each dot and use nearly opaque "inks" (toner).

Art
 
Arthur Entlich said:
I always suggest people ultimately use their eyes when at
all possible to determine the quality of a printer's output, but the
specs can help to narrow down the process,
Click to expand...

The map is not the terrain, and the specs are not the be-all and
end-all. Yet people will say they insist on a 2400dpi printer, because
all they know is black and white where the number of dots does, in and
of itself, directly determine the quality of the print.

Stupid people extrapolate that to color printing without doing any other
research, and end up buying crappy printers.
 
The map is not the terrain, and the specs are not the be-all and
end-all. Yet people will say they insist on a 2400dpi printer, because
all they know is black and white where the number of dots does, in and
of itself, directly determine the quality of the print.

Stupid people extrapolate that to color printing without doing any other
research, and end up buying crappy printers.
Click to expand...
Those would be "ignorant people", shaggy.
 
If you have ever read my posts over the last 10 or so years on this and
other forums, you would know I never have advocated using specs as the
method for determining output quality of a printer. In fact, I have
warned people about both scanner and printer specs for many years, and
that much of it is hype, or at least misdirection.

Having said that, laser printers, whether B&W or Color (and by the way,
I distinctly recall you making similar comments about B&W laser printers
not being judged by their resolution for grey scale, so I find it
interesting you have changed your tune), more than other printing
processes, are effected by dot resolution to the point where there is
value in looking at the specs at a starting point to consider the
ballpark you are in.

I still suggest people get print samples, consider how the samples were
produced (such as whether a RIP was used) or better yet, take an image
they personally know and bring it to the store and have a print made
right in front of them to get a better sense of the image quality the
printer can produce and the speed of printing.

Years ago, dot size and resolution in inkjet printers were meaningful,
when we were looking at 150 dpi versus 720 dpi, for instance. Today,
those high numbers in the many thousands becomes a game of specsmanship.
Laser prints are still evolving, and in general, even with color lasers,
all other things being equal, higher resolution can produce better results.

However, for all printing processes, the "eyes" have it.

Art
 
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