Configuring memory, lockup during defrag, insulating materials.

  • Thread starter Thread starter TygerTyger2010
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TygerTyger2010

I've just done a system upgrade. Actually started 2 weeks ago, but I've
had issues with DDR memory timing. Both random and predictable lockups,
and occasional spontaneous reboots.
I have it stable now running the RAM slow, but for a couple of times and
instances noted below. Clean install of windows XP Home. SP2 and all
the latest patches.

I went from Athlon 2800 XP Barton core 333 MHz FSB to Athlon64 4200+ x2
Manchester core S939.

New board is a DFI NF4 Infinity DAGF SKT939 Non-SLI nForce4 chipset,
Dual DDR400 PCI-E SATA ATX (BIOS 10/19/05)

I went with the S939 to reuse my RAM as a money saving measure. I'm
trying to run a mixed batch of PC3200 DDR400 RAM x3 512meg sticks all
CL3

Slot1 Channel A Micron Technology 8VDDT6464AG-40BCB 8 Chip
Slot2 Channel B Dane-Elec D1D400-064643N 8 Chip
Slot3 Channel A Infineon 64MX64U-40C 16 Chip

The two 8 chip sticks won't run stable in the same channel (At least at
333/400 MHz).

It was unstable up till 3 days ago with complete lockups at random and
also during accesses of the HDD.

I've got it running slowww at 266 MHz. (Though it still leaves my old
2800+ XP in the dust), CPU-Z reports:

130 FSB:RAM CPU/17
CAS LATENCY 3.0
RAS TO CAS DELAY 4 CLOCKS.
RAS PRECHARGE 2 CLOCKS
CYCLE TIME (TRAS) 8 CLOCKS
BANK CYCLE TIME(TRC) 12 CLOCKS.
COMMAND RATE 2T.
DRAM IDLE TIMER 16 CLOCKS.


Which is a fair hit on performance. I had it set higher including
running at CAS 2.5,2.0 (which was useless). I'm not sure at all of some
memory timing settings.
I may end up buying 2x 1GIG sticks of high quality overclocking RAM.
Though for budgeting purposes I wonder what would be stable and suitable
with this mobo?
I'd like to run some OCZ, but it is expensive and I've already spend
300GBP on upgrades. I may buy a 1gig now and more later. I do run a lot
of memory hungry apps.

I can post more memory timing settings from the BIOS if needed.


Talking about stability @ 266Mhz. Stable as a ** rock ** running
anything at all for 3-4 days system up 24/7, except for two occasions,
both today:

1. running Sisoft Sandra and opening certain pages. I don't count this
as I've seen it lock up my previous two systems doing the same thing.

2. And this is the one that worries me, before when the memory was
running at higher timing, it would frequently lock up during HHD access,
particularly during file copying.
I hadn't seen any hangs/lockups or resets until I did a defrag
today. One disk partition completed fine, took half an hour or so, it
was an NTFS partition. I started to
defrag another drive, a FAT32, and the system froze about a minute
in I had to hard reset it. Just as a guide: anyone had a lockup on a
stable system defragging an HDD with windows defrag? I'm just
trying to eliminate the memory from other issues.


System temps are OK. About 38-43C CPU idle, perhaps 48C max under load.
Northbridge 39-47 depending on load and room temp. HDD's vary per drive
from 31Cto 48C on a hot 160gig seagate. Average about 40C per drive. I'm
waiting on some new rear case fans for extra cooling. Fans on HDD's and
blowing over most things, 1 80mm front intake, but no extraction at all
except the two fans on the PSU.


Another Q. I have a Zalman northbridge passive heatsink. It is much
better at cooling the chipset, IF you put a fan near it to blow over it.
I have a quiet 120mm fan sitting at the edge of the mobo, stuck to the
floor of the case with velcro blowing over Zalman HS, and on to the VGA
card, and PCI cards.
I need this because the heatsink has a row of big sticky out petal fins
on it. It is partially below the end of the gfx card and within about
1mm of a capacitor on the graphics card. Without the fan I suspect the
gfx card would cook. It has a stock HSF which I will probably replace
later.
..
What would you suggest for a material that is thin, insulating and
suitable for sliding into the gap between the Zalman cooler and the gfx
card?




System setup:


DFI NF4 Infinity SKT939 DAGF Non-SLI nForce4 chipset, Dual DDR400 PCI-E
SATA ATX (BIOS 10/19/05)

AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+ @2.21GHz Manchester Core - Arctic Cooling Freezer
64 Pro HSF.

512MB PC3200 DDR400 x3:

Slot1 Channel A Micron Technology 8VDDT6464AG-40BCB 8 Chip
Slot2 Channel B Dane-Elec D1D400-064643N 8 Chip
Slot3 Channel A Infineon 64MX64U-40C 16 Chip
(Running at 266Mhz with some weird timings)

Inno3D Geforce 7300GT 128MB DDR3 PCI-E
Creative Soundblaster X-fi Extreme Music

Drive 1 - ST3300831A 300GB PATA
Drive 2 - WDC WD2500JB-57REA0 250GB PATA
Drive 3 - ST3160021A 160GB PATA
Drive 4 - ST3200822A 200GB PATA

Thermaltake XP550 430w PSU

CMD/Silicon Image PCI-0649 Ultra-ATA/100 IDE Controller running x2
optical drives:

MSI 16Max DVD-ROM
LG HL-DT-ST DVD-RAM GSA-4167B Dual layer 16x Writer
 
TygerTyger2010 said:
I've just done a system upgrade. Actually started 2 weeks ago, but I've
had issues with DDR memory timing. Both random and predictable lockups,
and occasional spontaneous reboots.
I have it stable now running the RAM slow, but for a couple of times and
instances noted below. Clean install of windows XP Home. SP2 and all
the latest patches.

I went from Athlon 2800 XP Barton core 333 MHz FSB to Athlon64 4200+ x2
Manchester core S939.

New board is a DFI NF4 Infinity DAGF SKT939 Non-SLI nForce4 chipset,
Dual DDR400 PCI-E SATA ATX (BIOS 10/19/05)

I went with the S939 to reuse my RAM as a money saving measure. I'm
trying to run a mixed batch of PC3200 DDR400 RAM x3 512meg sticks all
CL3

Slot1 Channel A Micron Technology 8VDDT6464AG-40BCB 8 Chip
Slot2 Channel B Dane-Elec D1D400-064643N 8 Chip
Slot3 Channel A Infineon 64MX64U-40C 16 Chip

The two 8 chip sticks won't run stable in the same channel (At least at
333/400 MHz).

It was unstable up till 3 days ago with complete lockups at random and
also during accesses of the HDD.

I've got it running slowww at 266 MHz. (Though it still leaves my old
2800+ XP in the dust), CPU-Z reports:

130 FSB:RAM CPU/17
CAS LATENCY 3.0
RAS TO CAS DELAY 4 CLOCKS.
RAS PRECHARGE 2 CLOCKS
CYCLE TIME (TRAS) 8 CLOCKS
BANK CYCLE TIME(TRC) 12 CLOCKS.
COMMAND RATE 2T.
DRAM IDLE TIMER 16 CLOCKS.

Which is a fair hit on performance. I had it set higher including
running at CAS 2.5,2.0 (which was useless). I'm not sure at all of some
memory timing settings.
I may end up buying 2x 1GIG sticks of high quality overclocking RAM.
Though for budgeting purposes I wonder what would be stable and suitable
with this mobo?
I'd like to run some OCZ, but it is expensive and I've already spend
300GBP on upgrades. I may buy a 1gig now and more later. I do run a lot
of memory hungry apps.

I can post more memory timing settings from the BIOS if needed.


Talking about stability @ 266Mhz. Stable as a ** rock ** running
anything at all for 3-4 days system up 24/7, except for two occasions,
both today:

1. running Sisoft Sandra and opening certain pages. I don't count this
as I've seen it lock up my previous two systems doing the same thing.

2. And this is the one that worries me, before when the memory was
running at higher timing, it would frequently lock up during HHD access,
particularly during file copying.
I hadn't seen any hangs/lockups or resets until I did a defrag
today. One disk partition completed fine, took half an hour or so, it
was an NTFS partition. I started to
defrag another drive, a FAT32, and the system froze about a minute
in I had to hard reset it. Just as a guide: anyone had a lockup on a
stable system defragging an HDD with windows defrag? I'm just
trying to eliminate the memory from other issues.


System temps are OK. About 38-43C CPU idle, perhaps 48C max under load.
Northbridge 39-47 depending on load and room temp. HDD's vary per drive
from 31Cto 48C on a hot 160gig seagate. Average about 40C per drive. I'm
waiting on some new rear case fans for extra cooling. Fans on HDD's and
blowing over most things, 1 80mm front intake, but no extraction at all
except the two fans on the PSU.


Another Q. I have a Zalman northbridge passive heatsink. It is much
better at cooling the chipset, IF you put a fan near it to blow over it.
I have a quiet 120mm fan sitting at the edge of the mobo, stuck to the
floor of the case with velcro blowing over Zalman HS, and on to the VGA
card, and PCI cards.
I need this because the heatsink has a row of big sticky out petal fins
on it. It is partially below the end of the gfx card and within about
1mm of a capacitor on the graphics card. Without the fan I suspect the
gfx card would cook. It has a stock HSF which I will probably replace
later.
.
What would you suggest for a material that is thin, insulating and
suitable for sliding into the gap between the Zalman cooler and the gfx
card?

System setup:

DFI NF4 Infinity SKT939 DAGF Non-SLI nForce4 chipset, Dual DDR400 PCI-E
SATA ATX (BIOS 10/19/05)

AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+ @2.21GHz Manchester Core - Arctic Cooling Freezer
64 Pro HSF.

512MB PC3200 DDR400 x3:

Slot1 Channel A Micron Technology 8VDDT6464AG-40BCB 8 Chip
Slot2 Channel B Dane-Elec D1D400-064643N 8 Chip
Slot3 Channel A Infineon 64MX64U-40C 16 Chip
(Running at 266Mhz with some weird timings)

Inno3D Geforce 7300GT 128MB DDR3 PCI-E
Creative Soundblaster X-fi Extreme Music

Drive 1 - ST3300831A 300GB PATA
Drive 2 - WDC WD2500JB-57REA0 250GB PATA
Drive 3 - ST3160021A 160GB PATA
Drive 4 - ST3200822A 200GB PATA

Thermaltake XP550 430w PSU

CMD/Silicon Image PCI-0649 Ultra-ATA/100 IDE Controller running x2
optical drives:

MSI 16Max DVD-ROM
LG HL-DT-ST DVD-RAM GSA-4167B Dual layer 16x Writer
Click to expand...

Using three sticks is *just wrong*. Your S939 board is dual
channel. You use either two matched sticks, or if you must,
two pairs of matched sticks. Dump the odd stick and you'll be
a lot happier. (Yes, the computer can run with three sticks,
I agree with that, but it is about the worst performing way
you could possibly set the computer up.)

In slot 1, you have an 8 chip stick (single sided ?).
In slot 2, you have an 8 chip stick also.

They sound pretty well matched. Together they give you 1GB total
RAM. If you use those sticks by themselves, you'll no longer have
to crank down the memory clock. You'll be able to run Command Rate 1T.

If you don't understand how to set memory timing (and I don't understand
them all either), I recommend using an "Auto" setting, for each field you
don't understand. Setting memory, implies you understand the math behind
the settings. On Athlon64, there are some settings that are determined by
the layout of the board (time of flight related). And not every setting is
significant. CAS is a pretty important one, and the others less
so. For example, you'd have to be an "uber user", to worry about
the refresh timing.

If you use the two sticks, and set everything to auto, you can
use programs like CPUZ, to see what settings the BIOS uses for the
system. That will give you some idea where you should be starting
with settings.

If the motherboard has an adjustment for Vdimm (the memory voltage),
sometimes a slight tweak there will help. 2.5V is nominal for DDR,
and 2.7V will not hurt anything (as long as the motherboard is not
known to be radically off from the value shown in the BIOS).

As for testing, waiting for a crash or an error using ordinary
apps is not the way to do it. There is a free program called Prime95
(mersenne.org) and it has something called the Totture Test. If
carries out a mathematical calculation with a known answer. The
calculation is carried out for hours and hours. If there is one
error, the program stops. It tests not only the DIMMs, but it
also tests your processor, and the processor's cache. Since it
makes the processor hot, and runs at 100% load, it simulates
a busy computer, and is valued as a stability test by overclockers.
But it can also be used by people running at stock speed, as in
your case - it can detect whether your RAM is adjusted well or not.

So dump one stick of RAM, and get your performance back :-)
Then you won't have to run at DDR266 any more. Try to use a matched
pair of DIMMs if you can (they have to be matched well enough to
keep the BIOS happy - if the memory rate goes back to DDR400, then
you've likely succeeded). At least the DIMMs should use the same
number of memory chips, and have the same capacity.

A matched pair of 1GB sticks is a good long term objective. They
don't have to be fancy. Even ordinary PC3200 (DDR400) sticks will
do. But the main thing is, using exactly two sticks, will allow
DDR400 speed, with a Command Rate 1T setting - and that is the
best set of conditions for memory bandwidth. It would be a *ton*
faster, than your three stick config.

For insulation, there are many substances that can be used. In the
old days, "mica", a mineral, was used as an insulator. It used to
be used in stereo systems, to fasten a power transistor to a heatsink,
and it is highly electrically insulating. The one thing it does not
have going for it, is material strength. You can compress it, but it
doesn't take tension well, and will crack. So pinching a bunch of
them between two objects is OK, but you cannot bend them or they'll
crack. Many other substances will have similar properties, but mica
can take a lot of heat compared to say, certain plastics. I think
at one time in the past, mica was used for making oven windows.

(Info from the manufacturer.)
http://www.keyelco.com/pdfs/p91.pdf (the ones for TO-3 are pretty big)
(Roughly 10 for a buck.)
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?Ref=67005&Row=175146&Site=US

Mica used for windows in stoves:
http://www.antiquestoves.com/mica/stovewindow/index.htm

HTH,
Paul
 
Paul said:
Using three sticks is *just wrong*. Your S939 board is dual
channel. You use either two matched sticks, or if you must,
two pairs of matched sticks. Dump the odd stick and you'll be
a lot happier. (Yes, the computer can run with three sticks,
I agree with that, but it is about the worst performing way
you could possibly set the computer up.)

In slot 1, you have an 8 chip stick (single sided ?).
In slot 2, you have an 8 chip stick also.

They sound pretty well matched. Together they give you 1GB total
RAM. If you use those sticks by themselves, you'll no longer have
to crank down the memory clock. You'll be able to run Command Rate 1T.

If you don't understand how to set memory timing (and I don't
understand them all either), I recommend using an "Auto" setting, for
each field you don't understand. Setting memory, implies you
understand the math behind the settings. On Athlon64, there are some
settings that are determined by the layout of the board (time of
flight related). And not every setting is significant. CAS is a
pretty important one, and the others less so. For example, you'd have to be an "uber user", to
worry about
the refresh timing.

If you use the two sticks, and set everything to auto, you can
use programs like CPUZ, to see what settings the BIOS uses for the
system. That will give you some idea where you should be starting
with settings.

If the motherboard has an adjustment for Vdimm (the memory voltage),
sometimes a slight tweak there will help. 2.5V is nominal for DDR,
and 2.7V will not hurt anything (as long as the motherboard is not
known to be radically off from the value shown in the BIOS).

As for testing, waiting for a crash or an error using ordinary
apps is not the way to do it. There is a free program called Prime95
(mersenne.org) and it has something called the Totture Test. If
carries out a mathematical calculation with a known answer. The
calculation is carried out for hours and hours. If there is one
error, the program stops. It tests not only the DIMMs, but it
also tests your processor, and the processor's cache. Since it
makes the processor hot, and runs at 100% load, it simulates
a busy computer, and is valued as a stability test by overclockers.
But it can also be used by people running at stock speed, as in
your case - it can detect whether your RAM is adjusted well or not.

So dump one stick of RAM, and get your performance back :-)
Then you won't have to run at DDR266 any more. Try to use a matched
pair of DIMMs if you can (they have to be matched well enough to
keep the BIOS happy - if the memory rate goes back to DDR400, then
you've likely succeeded). At least the DIMMs should use the same
number of memory chips, and have the same capacity.

A matched pair of 1GB sticks is a good long term objective. They
don't have to be fancy. Even ordinary PC3200 (DDR400) sticks will
do. But the main thing is, using exactly two sticks, will allow
DDR400 speed, with a Command Rate 1T setting - and that is the
best set of conditions for memory bandwidth. It would be a *ton*
faster, than your three stick config.

For insulation, there are many substances that can be used. In the
old days, "mica", a mineral, was used as an insulator. It used to
be used in stereo systems, to fasten a power transistor to a heatsink,
and it is highly electrically insulating. The one thing it does not
have going for it, is material strength. You can compress it, but it
doesn't take tension well, and will crack. So pinching a bunch of
them between two objects is OK, but you cannot bend them or they'll
crack. Many other substances will have similar properties, but mica
can take a lot of heat compared to say, certain plastics. I think
at one time in the past, mica was used for making oven windows.

(Info from the manufacturer.)
http://www.keyelco.com/pdfs/p91.pdf (the ones for TO-3 are pretty big)
(Roughly 10 for a buck.)
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?Ref=67005&Row=175146&Site=US

Mica used for windows in stoves:
http://www.antiquestoves.com/mica/stovewindow/index.htm
Click to expand...

It'd be better to use a strip of pcb material. Single sided of course.
 
Paul said:
I've just done a system upgrade. Actually started 2 weeks ago, but I've
had issues with DDR memory timing. Both random and predictable lockups,
and occasional spontaneous reboots.
I have it stable now running the RAM slow, but for a couple of times and
instances noted below. Clean install of windows XP Home. SP2 and all
the latest patches.

I went from Athlon 2800 XP Barton core 333 MHz FSB to Athlon64 4200+ x2
Manchester core S939.

New board is a DFI NF4 Infinity DAGF SKT939 Non-SLI nForce4 chipset,
Dual DDR400 PCI-E SATA ATX (BIOS 10/19/05)

I went with the S939 to reuse my RAM as a money saving measure. I'm
trying to run a mixed batch of PC3200 DDR400 RAM x3 512meg sticks all
CL3

Slot1 Channel A Micron Technology 8VDDT6464AG-40BCB 8 Chip
Slot2 Channel B Dane-Elec D1D400-064643N 8 Chip
Slot3 Channel A Infineon 64MX64U-40C 16 Chip

The two 8 chip sticks won't run stable in the same channel (At least at
333/400 MHz).

It was unstable up till 3 days ago with complete lockups at random and
also during accesses of the HDD.

I've got it running slowww at 266 MHz. (Though it still leaves my old
2800+ XP in the dust), CPU-Z reports:

130 FSB:RAM CPU/17
CAS LATENCY 3.0
RAS TO CAS DELAY 4 CLOCKS.
RAS PRECHARGE 2 CLOCKS
CYCLE TIME (TRAS) 8 CLOCKS
BANK CYCLE TIME(TRC) 12 CLOCKS.
COMMAND RATE 2T.
DRAM IDLE TIMER 16 CLOCKS.

Which is a fair hit on performance. I had it set higher including
running at CAS 2.5,2.0 (which was useless). I'm not sure at all of some
memory timing settings.
I may end up buying 2x 1GIG sticks of high quality overclocking RAM.
Though for budgeting purposes I wonder what would be stable and suitable
with this mobo?
Click to expand...
[Snippage....]


Using three sticks is *just wrong*. Your S939 board is dual
channel. You use either two matched sticks, or if you must,
two pairs of matched sticks. Dump the odd stick and you'll be
a lot happier. (Yes, the computer can run with three sticks,
I agree with that, but it is about the worst performing way
you could possibly set the computer up.)

In slot 1, you have an 8 chip stick (single sided ?).
In slot 2, you have an 8 chip stick also.
Click to expand...

Yes, both single sided. I believe the Dane-Elec has micron chips on it.
IIRC from when I purchased it about 2 years ago.

I had both of them in slot 1,3 channel A on first bootup 2 weeks ago. It
wouldn't even post, just beeps until I swapped out the Dane-Elec for the
16 chip infineon in slot 3.
(I was running with 1 gig initially). Windows wouldn't install without
crapping out at every second step.

I've never learned enough about advanced memory options before now, and
presumed that the default settings would be OK for inital stability. It
is actually having the x3 sticks @ CAS3 that has brought stability to
the system even at a slow 266Mhz. I think they were at CAS2, or 2.5 @
400Mhz initially and then I dropped various timings down to slower rates
and got enough to run with some stability. All three modules were
running at 333Mhz on my old Gigabyte board w/Athlon 2800+ XP. It could
run 7-10 days without a reboot, usually because Windows XP starting to
clog up by then.


Thinking, reading your replies, and reading some more on memory I think
that the biggest problem was that I presumed too much and though too
little at the time. I knew the RAM was CAS3 , but I was too confused by
the plethora of BIOS options on the DFI mobo. I'm used to kind, gentle,
Gigabyte boards that don't talk about "chipkill" and blah blah timing.



They sound pretty well matched. Together they give you 1GB total
RAM. If you use those sticks by themselves, you'll no longer have
to crank down the memory clock. You'll be able to run Command Rate 1T.

If you don't understand how to set memory timing (and I don't understand
them all either), I recommend using an "Auto" setting, for each field you
don't understand. Setting memory, implies you understand the math behind
the settings. On Athlon64, there are some settings that are determined by
the layout of the board (time of flight related). And not every setting is
significant. CAS is a pretty important one, and the others less
so. For example, you'd have to be an "uber user", to worry about
the refresh timing.
Click to expand...

Thanks. This helps a lot. I was setting most of the options to auto, but
thinking "I need to set all of these all manually to the appropriate
setting" and worrying about it.
After newyear, I'm going to try different permutations out.
If you use the two sticks, and set everything to auto, you can
use programs like CPUZ, to see what settings the BIOS uses for the
system. That will give you some idea where you should be starting
with settings.

If the motherboard has an adjustment for Vdimm (the memory voltage),
sometimes a slight tweak there will help. 2.5V is nominal for DDR,
and 2.7V will not hurt anything (as long as the motherboard is not
known to be radically off from the value shown in the BIOS).
Click to expand...

Interesting. The memory was running at 2.7V Initially, but I put it down
to 2.5V to be on the safe side. I'll try upping it a little.

Cheers,

Tyger.
 
TygerTyger2010 said:
I had both of them in slot 1,3 channel A on first bootup 2 weeks ago. It
wouldn't even post, just beeps until I swapped out the Dane-Elec for the
16 chip infineon in slot 3.
(I was running with 1 gig initially). Windows wouldn't install without
crapping out at every second step.
Click to expand...

If you look at the table in the manual, slot 1 and slot 2 are a
dual channel pair. Or you can put a matched pair of DIMMs in
slot 3 and slot 4. Using slot 1 + slot 3, is bad for performance.

---------- 4
---------- 3
---------- 2 \_____ Place a matched pair here for dual channel
---------- 1 /

or
---------- 4 \_____ Place a matched pair here for dual channel
---------- 3 /
---------- 2
---------- 1

On a good motherboard, the BIOS should show a status of "Dual Channel"
somewhere on the startup screen. Just to confirm you've got them
in the right slots.

If you have one stick per channel, that will enable the board to run
at DDR400, with a Command Rate setting of 1T. Those are the most
desirable settings to be using. By using "Auto" for CAS, the
BIOS should read the proper timing value out of the SPD chip
on the DIMM.

CPUZ (from cpuid.com) can display the memory speed and Command Rate.

Also, if you use memtest86+ (memtest.org), there is a bandwidth
indicator for your memory subsystem. You can tweak the memory
in the BIOS, then boot a memtest86+ floppy or CD, and read out
the new bandwidth you achieve. That can help you while you
are experimenting.

HTH,
Paul
 
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