Comparing Languages

[buildpc]

Hi,

After 15 years, I left application development 4 years ago and have been
working at home at something else. I've kept up my skills in VB6, VBA, MS
Office and VSourceSafe. I had quite a bit of experience in Clipper for DOS.
I would like to do some software development at home but I'm also thinking
I may need a full-time employer and will have to start commuting.

I've been using Visual Studio 6 and am considering upgrading to/learning
dotnet. I'm looking for an unbiased comparison of VB.net, VFP.net, VC.net
so I may choose which language to focus on first.

1) Is there any inherent advantge to the speed, reliability, and
interconnectivity of each?

2) Since each supports SQL, XML, and the .Net framework, how do you choose
a language for an application?

3) Who uses VFP and does it have a future? It seems to me it's an
afterthought, moreso after it was removed from Visual Studio.

4) Is Visual Basic universally held to be inferior? I've heard people poo
poo software because it was developed in Basic, visual or not.

5) Is it politically correct these days to develop applications as ASP?

6) Is there any area of application development that is hot (meaning, in
demand/paying lots of money)? SQL? Web pages?

7) Are Microsoft products used by most organizations for application
development or is there something else out there?

Thanks for your time.
-- Scott

 

[Cindy Winegarden]

In [email protected],

Hi Scott,

...I'm looking for an unbiased comparison of
VB.net, VFP.net, VC.net so I may choose which language to focus on
first.

There is no VFP.NET.

3) Who uses VFP and does it have a future? It seems to me it's an
afterthought, moreso after it was removed from Visual Studio.

Visual FoxPro was removed from the first version of VS.NET at the request of
the FoxPro community. It now has its own budget and ship schedule and is now
in version 8 with VFP9 due out sometime next year.

Lots of people use VFP. The choice of development tool should depend on the
requirements of the project at hand. VFP is tops for working with data and
for customers who don't want the expense and complication of using an SQL
database like MS SQL Server. At the same time it makes a great front end to
an SQL database since once the data is retrieved VFP's cursor engine takes
over and data is handled like native VFP data.

VFP8, the current version of Visual FoxPro will be supported until 2010, and
I assume that VFP9 will be supported until 2011 or 2012, depending on when
it goes live.

4) Is Visual Basic universally held to be inferior? I've heard people poo
poo software because it was developed in Basic, visual or not.

I find it odd that you didn't include a C# newsgroup in your cross-post. I
doubt there's much competition between VB.NET and VC++.NET because they play
to such different audiences. Why did you include the non-existent newsgroup
"microsoft.public.vsnet.vfp" in your cross-post?

IMHO anyone who sees the need to "poo poo" another development tool shows
his own insecurity that he has made the right choice. Every development tool
has strengths and drawbacks and one should choose the right tool for the
job, depending, among other things, on the type of app to be developed, and
the skills he already has.

6) Is there any area of application development that is hot (meaning,
in demand/paying lots of money)? SQL? Web pages?

7) Are Microsoft products used by most organizations for application
development or is there something else out there?

Unless you're willing/planning to relocate, wouldn't the answer to each of
these questions depend on the job market in your area? What if the biggest
employer in town uses X for software development - does that indicate its
popularity in the national or world job market? Checking the local newspaper
might give a better answer for your area than anyone here can.

 

[John Spiegel]

Hi Scott,

I'm looking for an unbiased comparison of VB.net, VFP.net, VC.net
so I may choose which language to focus on first.

1) Is there any inherent advantge to the speed, reliability, and
interconnectivity of each?

As far as speed and interconnectivity, VFP is still the champ in many
regards. It's got a wide array of functionality for connecting to other
data formats. One thing I really love about it is that if you don't have to
connect to something else it's even better--for simplicity and speed a
native database is still hard to beat.

I recently spent an entire day trying to troubleshoot an ASP.net page
pulling data out of SQL Server through ADO.net. Turned out to be something
stupid I hadn't noticed, but the point is while a great deal of flexibility
can come from picking and choosing, complexity of troubleshooting CAN be
part of it, too.

As to reliability, modern networks and improvements in VFP have made it very
competetive. It's been a couple of years--perhaps even more--since I've
seen a problem with one of my tables that could be tracked to corruption.

That said, SQL server is still the MS leader in reliability of data. My
impression is that Oracle may hold the top spot, though that's potentially a
matter of perception, history and the popularity of disliking Microsoft.

2) Since each supports SQL, XML, and the .Net framework, how do you choose
a language for an application?

VFP has been positioned by MS as a middle tier technology--ideal for all of
these pulling, manipulating and pushing data kind of things. As Cindy
mentioned, VFP is not .net. It can make use of .net-based components,
though it's through COM so it's not as "direct" as a .net app.

3) Who uses VFP and does it have a future? It seems to me it's an
afterthought, moreso after it was removed from Visual Studio.

Here's where I can get in trouble in the VFP group, but VFP seems to have
and may (unfortunately) continue to occupy the same development space it has
for a number of years. It's a POWERFUL tool that I'd choose for more
desktop/front-end/LAN scenarios than any other out there. But whether it's
marketing, learning curve or perception of it being "old" because it's
XBase, it is unlikely, IMHO, to ever approach the distribution level of VB.

4) Is Visual Basic universally held to be inferior? I've heard people poo
poo software because it was developed in Basic, visual or not.

Cindy had a good point. My impression is that it is "held" to be inferior
(often for the prejudices Cindy mentions). In my mind, one of its greatest
shortcomings were done away with when .net released, i.e., being
object-based rather than object-oriented.

5) Is it politically correct these days to develop applications as ASP?

If you're looking ahead, I'd look at ASP.net rather than classic ASP (3.0-).
A lot of development still goes on in older versions, maybe even a majority,
but eventually the newer overtakes. If I were getting ramped up for
something, I'd prefer to go with that which has more longevity.

6) Is there any area of application development that is hot (meaning, in
demand/paying lots of money)? SQL? Web pages?

Oracle seems to remain pretty high. Among the 3/4GLs, C/C++ seem to be
salary leaders. However, VB is about the widest used. I don't think
knowing web development can hurt. A lot of companies that aren't even
really into the web ask for it anyway and at least see it as something they
may want to get into. I also see a lot of php going on.

7) Are Microsoft products used by most organizations for application
development or is there something else out there?

Can't say for sure, but it is safe to say that there's unlikely any other
company with a significantly larger presence.

Given that it sounds like you're primarily looking for marketability,
Cindy's comments are quite pertinent. I live in a medium-sized city
(Denver, CO) w/ a metro area > 2M. Doing a Monster search in the area on
SQL Server, ASP.net and C# gives me half as many hits as searching
nationwide for FoxPro. Personally, I think VFP will stay around and have a
strong community for years to come, but it will continue to be perceived
more niche and less mainstream.

Clear as mud?

- John

 

[buildpc]

Hi Cindy,

Cindy Winegarden MCSD, Microsoft Visual FoxPro MVP

I find it odd that you didn't include a C# newsgroup in your cross-post.

I didn't because I am not that familiar with C tools and the best place to
post for C. Any version of C will be the highest learning curve for me.

Why did you include the non-existent newsgroup
"microsoft.public.vsnet.vfp" in your cross-post?

Because my newsreader came up with it when I searched for "vfp".

IMHO anyone who sees the need to "poo poo" another development tool shows
his own insecurity that he has made the right choice.

Some of the "poo poo"ing is done by end users who listen to marketing
people. I worked for a company that was known for its excellent support.
The competition needed something to attack us on so would tell prospects
that our software was written in BASIC while theirs was written in something
else, probably C, and, therefore, was superior. But I swear I remember a
big Visual Basic/Visual C controversy on the newsgroups several years ago,
so the two combined led me to ask the question.

Unless you're willing/planning to relocate, wouldn't the answer to each of
these questions depend on the job market in your area? What if the biggest
employer in town uses X for software development - does that indicate its
popularity in the national or world job market? Checking the local
newspaper
might give a better answer for your area than anyone here can.

Why would locale matter? If I have to have a job, sure, I'm stick with
what's being offered in my area. On the other hand, what's hot nationally
will eventually come to every area and the people who are trained when it
arrives will be in demand. I can train on my own time. Then there are
companies like Borland and products like Clipper. They exist so there must
be a market. I ask the question just in case I might be missing something.


Thank you, Cindy, for taking the time to think about my questions and add
insight.
-- Scott

 

[buildpc]

As to reliability, modern networks and improvements in VFP have made it
very
competetive. It's been a couple of years--perhaps even more--since I've
seen a problem with one of my tables that could be tracked to corruption.

Now that's important to me! I've wasted enough hours on corrupt xbase
databases affecting multiple clients. However I can say that the corruption
was usually due to a problem with the network or file server. One time it
was a bug that Netware wasn't flushing its buffers (back in 1988 or so).
Another time it was a large NT hard drive that should have been partitioned
but wasn't. If Clipper had a corruption problem it was usually the index
files. Annoying to rebuild but simple enough. My encounters with database
corruption extend beyond xbase too so don't think I'm knocking it.

If you're looking ahead, I'd look at ASP.net rather than classic ASP ...

I wasn't clear in my question. Do companies want their applications to have
the look and feel of a web page even if said application were only used on a
single machine or a private network? I'm not that familiar with active
server pages and I apologize if my lingo was incorrect.

Clear as mud?

Quite clear. I'm glad to hear that VFP is a going concern. I've always had
a soft spot for xbase. You brought up many interesting points. Thank you
for taking the time.
-- Scott

 

[Edhy Rijo]

John,

VFP tables and databases get more and more reliable with new versions, I
remember the time when using FPD2.6 and hopefully I had Stonefield Toolkit,
and FoxFix which took care of the corruption problems, but frankly I don't
even remember getting a support request for corrupted DBF in VFP7/8 for the
last 3 years!

We use Visual ProMatrix framework www.promatrix.com and I can fully
recommend it for any developer that wants to get back and pick up the new
VFP stuff, I used to use FoxExpress for VFP5 http://www.f1tech.com/ and
switch to Visual ProMatrix for personal reasons, but today any of the
available frameworks in the market can help you get the job done in a short
amount of time, and better yet, help you understand the new VFP.

Good luck.

 

[John Spiegel]

corruption.

Now that's important to me! I've wasted enough hours on corrupt xbase
databases affecting multiple clients. However I can say that the corruption
was usually due to a problem with the network or file server. One time it
was a bug that Netware wasn't flushing its buffers (back in 1988 or so).
Another time it was a large NT hard drive that should have been partitioned
but wasn't. If Clipper had a corruption problem it was usually the index
files. Annoying to rebuild but simple enough. My encounters with database
corruption extend beyond xbase too so don't think I'm knocking it.

Yah, I've been really happy w/ the stability lately. The ONLY caveat that
comes to mind is that I now work for a small company writing in-house
stuff--so my sample space is smaller. I used to see more corruption when
working for a company that had a FP product. But really from what I see and
read it is way less corruption prone now.

I wasn't clear in my question. Do companies want their applications to have
the look and feel of a web page even if said application were only used on a
single machine or a private network? I'm not that familiar with active
server pages and I apologize if my lingo was incorrect.

I just wanted to make sure. I've been trying to get up to speed in it and
the books I read are almost sickenlingly religious about drawing the
distinction--so I've had it beaten in my head. I'm not sure companies
prefer web interfaces but would say that companies are more open to a web
interface. It's familiar to most users and it may be perceived as keeping
options open for leveraging the code and experience when they do things on
the web. And let's face it, within most companies, whatever employees are
given to work with is what they get.

Quite clear. I'm glad to hear that VFP is a going concern. I've always had
a soft spot for xbase. You brought up many interesting points. Thank you
for taking the time.

No problem. Good luck and welcome back!

- John