Canon ip4200 Printer Refills

[jeffy3]

So I am walking down the street six months ago and see a new Island Ink
Jet franchise and stopped in to chat with the guy to see what his store
is all about because I need a new printer. He recommends the Canon
ip4200 because of the ability for him to refill the individual ink
cartridges at a little more than 1/2 the price of new cartridges. So
last week three of our colors ran out at once so I dropped them off on
Saturday and he calls my wife this morning to say he can't refill them
because of some microchip in them and he expects to have a chip
re-setter by the end of the summer.

My questions:
1) why did he recommend this printer if he cannot refill it? were
the chips possibly not in use at the time?
2) my friend tells me he can still refill it but the computer will
still pop up a window showing the ink is low and if I continue to use
it I may void the warranty but I can choose to eventually turn off that
warning and proceed to print...why wouldn't the Island Ink Jet guy tell
us this?
3) why is the chip resetter taking until the end of summer?

Thanks in advance!

 

[measekite]

So I am walking down the street six months ago and see a new Island Ink
Jet franchise and stopped in to chat with the guy to see what his store
is all about because I need a new printer. He recommends the Canon
ip4200 because of the ability for him to refill the individual ink
cartridges at a little more than 1/2 the price of new cartridges. So
last week three of our colors ran out at once so I dropped them off on
Saturday and he calls my wife this morning to say he can't refill them
because of some microchip in them and he expects to have a chip
re-setter by the end of the summer.

My questions:
1) why did he recommend this printer if he cannot refill it? were
the chips possibly not in use at the time?

There is a credability probem in the entire generic industry

2) my friend tells me he can still refill it but the computer will
still pop up a window showing the ink is low and if I continue to use
it I may void the warranty but I can choose to eventually turn off that
warning and proceed to print...why wouldn't the Island Ink Jet guy tell
us this?
3) why is the chip resetter taking until the end of summer?

There will probably not be such a device. Even if there is the new
pixma printers take a brand new formulation of ink and it is unique to
Canon. Risking your printer to clogging and even worse, plus fading of
photos and also quality that is not as good is not worth half the
price. Check Amazon imaging for genuine Canon ink carts at a decent
price. The ink for the older IP4000 is about $8.60 a cart. That is not
a bad price. Also check out Costco.

 

[ray]

So I am walking down the street six months ago and see a new Island Ink
Jet franchise and stopped in to chat with the guy to see what his store
is all about because I need a new printer. He recommends the Canon
ip4200 because of the ability for him to refill the individual ink
cartridges at a little more than 1/2 the price of new cartridges. So
last week three of our colors ran out at once so I dropped them off on
Saturday and he calls my wife this morning to say he can't refill them
because of some microchip in them and he expects to have a chip
re-setter by the end of the summer.

My questions:
1) why did he recommend this printer if he cannot refill it? were
the chips possibly not in use at the time?

It always had the chips. It is a good printer when it works.

2) my friend tells me he can still refill it but the computer will
still pop up a window showing the ink is low and if I continue to use
it I may void the warranty but I can choose to eventually turn off that
warning and proceed to print...why wouldn't the Island Ink Jet guy tell
us this?

Because it is true

3) why is the chip resetter taking until the end of summer?

Don't hold your breath, it has been work in progress since the printer
was introduced. There are patent issues and difficult to break
encryption issues. You can but a new set of cartridges complete with
a new printer for less than the cost of the ink. I have seen new
IP4200 for as little as $49 missing only the UPC code.

 

[BD]

Saturday and he calls my wife this morning to say he can't refill them

because of some microchip in them and he expects to have a chip
re-setter by the end of the summer.

That really sucks.

I was tempted by the 4200, but after I learned that the cartridges were
chipped and that that could complicate refilling, I went for the
iP4000, which (AFAIK) is basically the same animal, but without the
chips in the carts.

I paid a lot more than I would have for the 4200, but the freedom to
refill at will, I'm sure, will be worth it.

If I were you, I'd go back to the guy, and tell him (diplomatically)
that he did not know what he was talking about when he said the carts
could be refilled. He was very likely thinking of the 4000, not the
4200.

I would tell him to refund your money, given that he told you something
that ended up to not be true, and then I would walk out of the store
and get a 4000, where the chipped carts will not even be a variable.

Even if you have to pay more, I think it would be worth it. 4000s are
selling for nearly $200 on Ebay right now, likely because of the
combination of features/quality, and the fact that its carts are not
chipped.

BD

 

[jeffy3]

That really sucks.

I was tempted by the 4200, but after I learned that the cartridges were
chipped and that that could complicate refilling, I went for the
iP4000, which (AFAIK) is basically the same animal, but without the
chips in the carts.

I paid a lot more than I would have for the 4200, but the freedom to
refill at will, I'm sure, will be worth it.

If I were you, I'd go back to the guy, and tell him (diplomatically)
that he did not know what he was talking about when he said the carts
could be refilled. He was very likely thinking of the 4000, not the
4200.

Thanks for the response. I didn't buy the printer from him, and he very
well may have recommended the 4000. I, not knowing any better, just
looked for the best deal on a Canon printer that used the individual
color carts. I don't remember now six months later if he specifically
recommended the 4000 or the 4200.

 

[BD]

I don't remember now six months later if he specifically

recommended the 4000 or the 4200.

Mm. That's unfortunate.

Well, if you are stuck with it, I gather that even without a chip
resetter, you're not completely SOL for refilling; the printer will
apparently just nag you incessantly - these warnings can apparently be
turned off, but I don't know any specifics.

Apparently refilling will also put your warranty at risk. But anyone
with a modicum of common sense will see that the entire chip/warranty
thing is a thinly-veiled cash grab on the part of Canon, attempting to
force consumers into paying inordinate prices for their ink. And that's
a game I just won't play.

The newsgroup archives should contain some discussion on the topic of
the warnings, and disabling them. I believe that "Taliesyn" has posted
some info on it - or at least, I believe he knows about it. I'd
encourage you to search a bit before posting a question, but I expect
that if you do strike out, people won't be too averse to talking about
it even if it's been discussed a few times.

This is almost a FAQ-able topic.

Cheers,

BD

 

[zakezuke]

My questions:
1) why did he recommend this printer if he cannot refill it? were
the chips possibly not in use at the time?

You can refill it, it's not a problem. They probally *were* refilling
them until they got complaints that the printer would say "cartridge is
empty". Near as i'm aware the printer will still print when the
cartridge thinks it's empty. Now it could be newer rom revisions or
other canons which take these cartridges will refuse to print. I can't
conferm this, I have seen a couple of people make reference to this
being an issue.

2) my friend tells me he can still refill it but the computer will
still pop up a window showing the ink is low and if I continue to use
it I may void the warranty but I can choose to eventually turn off that
warning and proceed to print...why wouldn't the Island Ink Jet guy tell
us this?

Any business entity is directlly accountable for any advice they give.
For example you can use a potato to remove a broken lightbulb from a
socket. But if a lighting store were to tell you this, and not tell
you to make sure the switch is off, or better yet the breaker, and you
get a shock, they could be held accountable.

Now refilling the cli-8 is possible, and easy, but doing do disables
the meter. This could result in the printer running out of ink, so the
end user will have to pop the lid and check the levels from time to
time. Not doing so can result in printing while empty and possible
burnout. Unfortunatly they are not a Mickey Mouse operation that will
give you 1/2 a solution.

A business "can do it" can mean many things... but ususally it means
"we won't do it". You can try your self and ask if they will do it if
you accept the resonciblity of checking the levels your self.

3) why is the chip resetter taking until the end of summer?

They probally don't know for a fact that it will be out at the end of
summer. Canon came out with their chips after Epson's chips and did a
pretty bang up job on them. It's more than a physical product that can
just be reset, the chips are also encrypted. I don't know the
technical aspect of the chips but I suspect that it's a case of having
to write the correct data that would represent a new fresh cartridge
rather than a prior cartridge, or having to write different data each
time so a printer doesn't see a reset cartridge as being the same as
the old one. Again, not knowing this for a fact, I suspect the problem
isn't so much setting the chips but rather creating a commerical
product which is priced low enough for people to buy, or companies like
island inkjets.

But assuming they already have created a prototype of a handy dandy
chip resetter, they have to tool up a factory, train workers, establish
distrubtion channels, etc... etc. This is assuming that a final
product has been developed, and has past the testing stage and is ready
to be made. Odds are I won't know about it till I start seeing them on
e-bay. I've been waiting for a year for any information on the
subject, actual information not "maybe by the end of the summer".

 

[jeffy3]

You can refill it, it's not a problem. They probally *were* refilling
them until they got complaints that the printer would say "cartridge is
empty". Near as i'm aware the printer will still print when the
cartridge thinks it's empty. Now it could be newer rom revisions or
other canons which take these cartridges will refuse to print. I can't
conferm this, I have seen a couple of people make reference to this
being an issue.


Any business entity is directlly accountable for any advice they give.
For example you can use a potato to remove a broken lightbulb from a
socket. But if a lighting store were to tell you this, and not tell
you to make sure the switch is off, or better yet the breaker, and you
get a shock, they could be held accountable.

Now refilling the cli-8 is possible, and easy, but doing do disables
the meter. This could result in the printer running out of ink, so the
end user will have to pop the lid and check the levels from time to
time. Not doing so can result in printing while empty and possible
burnout. Unfortunatly they are not a Mickey Mouse operation that will
give you 1/2 a solution.

A business "can do it" can mean many things... but ususally it means
"we won't do it". You can try your self and ask if they will do it if
you accept the resonciblity of checking the levels your self.



They probally don't know for a fact that it will be out at the end of
summer. Canon came out with their chips after Epson's chips and did a
pretty bang up job on them. It's more than a physical product that can
just be reset, the chips are also encrypted. I don't know the
technical aspect of the chips but I suspect that it's a case of having
to write the correct data that would represent a new fresh cartridge
rather than a prior cartridge, or having to write different data each
time so a printer doesn't see a reset cartridge as being the same as
the old one. Again, not knowing this for a fact, I suspect the problem
isn't so much setting the chips but rather creating a commerical
product which is priced low enough for people to buy, or companies like
island inkjets.

But assuming they already have created a prototype of a handy dandy
chip resetter, they have to tool up a factory, train workers, establish
distrubtion channels, etc... etc. This is assuming that a final
product has been developed, and has past the testing stage and is ready
to be made. Odds are I won't know about it till I start seeing them on
e-bay. I've been waiting for a year for any information on the
subject, actual information not "maybe by the end of the summer".

What is the difference between the two different black cartridges? One
is twice the size (and costs $30! ) Can I do without it if I don't
print photos?

 

[Burt]

What is the difference between the two different black cartridges? One
is twice the size (and costs $30! ) Can I do without it if I don't
print photos?

The large black cart is pigmented ink that is only used when you have
selected plain paper in the printer software. The small black cart is used
when any other paper is chosen or when you select the duplex feature. Even
if you never use the large black cart the printer runs cleaning cycles
periodically that use ink from all the carts. Sooner or later you will need
to replace it. If you don't refill or replace an empty cart the nozzles for
that cart will probably burn out. For sure they will clog. Since a new set
of carts costs nearly the same as the printer with a full set of carts you
are money ahead by refilling yourself even if you were to damage the
printhead sometime later. Several people on this NG have been refilling for
lots of years very successfully without damage to their printers. There are
a few companies that now have ink for the ip4200. One is hobbicolors.
Refilling is extremely easy and any potential mess is easily contained with
a bit of care. Incidentally, taking the original carts out of the printer
and going to a store for refills raises an important issue. When you remove
a cart and don't immediately put in another new or refilled one the
printhead can dry out and clog. Even when refilling it is best to have at
least one backup set so you can remove a nearly empty cart and put in a
full/new one right away.

Zakezuke mentioned a disturbing few posts we've seen in which people say the
printer refused to print after all of the carts had, at one time or another,
signalled empty and had been refilled. That issue hasn't been confirmed yet
as far as I know.

 

[zakezuke]

What is the difference between the two different black cartridges? One
is twice the size (and costs $30! ) Can I do without it if I don't
print photos?

You "DON'T" want to do without any ink. The canon employs self
cleaning cycles and if you use the printhead without ink, well it's
like running a car without coolent. As for long long you can run
without ink, I don't know.

But the big black, which is more like $15 to $17, unless you are
outside the US, is used when plain paper is selected. It's a pigmented
black which looks kinda flat on glossy photo papers.

The small black is dye which isn't so good on plain paper, but is what
one wants to use on photo paper, so it looks the same as the other inks
and not show stark lines slightly above the color ones.

Now in duplex mode, it mixes the big and small together, which is said
to prevent bleeding and make drying faster.

But also, the small black isn't used all that much, at least on my
mp760 at a ratio of roughly 3:1 over the color, perhaps as high as 4:1.
Though it's harder to tell on my ip5200 as ive been doign dvd covers
with lots of black on photo paper, but I suspect the same is true.

It's your printer, you can do what you like, but I would strongly
reccomend always having ink in your printer.

 

[thoss]

The large black cart is pigmented ink that is only used when you have
selected plain paper in the printer software. The small black cart is
used when any other paper is chosen or when you select the duplex
feature. Even if you never use the large black cart the printer runs
cleaning cycles periodically that use ink from all the carts.

If you never, ever, use plain paper, could one fill the large cart with
water?

 

[zakezuke]

If you never, ever, use plain paper, could one fill the large cart with
water?

I "imagine" one could, but I wouldn't. There's algae and fungus which
can grow in water, not to speak of areas which have hard water. Bulk
ink, even the pigment black ink is there and abouts of $2ish/ounce.
Windex is even less, though I don't know if windex is a good idea as
i've never tried it, but windex is at least closer to the base for many
inks than plain water. But all of this is rather accidemic as on the
newer generation an empty cart will result in the loss of metering....
I believe on all cartridges.

 

[jeffy3]

You "DON'T" want to do without any ink. The canon employs self
cleaning cycles and if you use the printhead without ink, well it's
like running a car without coolent. As for long long you can run
without ink, I don't know.

But the big black, which is more like $15 to $17, unless you are
outside the US, is used when plain paper is selected.

Amazon has really reasonable prices for the color carts, but the big
black is $29.99?

 

[Ron P]

So I am walking down the street six months ago and see a new Island Ink
Jet franchise and stopped in to chat with the guy to see what his store
is all about because I need a new printer. He recommends the Canon
ip4200 because of the ability for him to refill the individual ink
cartridges at a little more than 1/2 the price of new cartridges. So
last week three of our colors ran out at once so I dropped them off on
Saturday and he calls my wife this morning to say he can't refill them
because of some microchip in them and he expects to have a chip
re-setter by the end of the summer.

My questions:
1) why did he recommend this printer if he cannot refill it? were
the chips possibly not in use at the time?
2) my friend tells me he can still refill it but the computer will
still pop up a window showing the ink is low and if I continue to use
it I may void the warranty but I can choose to eventually turn off that
warning and proceed to print...why wouldn't the Island Ink Jet guy tell
us this?
3) why is the chip resetter taking until the end of summer?

Thanks in advance!

I have used Island Inkjet ink and it is good stuff. The fellow didn't
understand that you don't need to re-set the chip in order to use the
cartridge. You just lose the ink monitor capability. There isn't a re-setter
yet for the chip so don't worry about it. Just have them refill your
cartridges. They should have the correct inks by now as I have been in
contact with their main office a while ago and they were in the process of
setting up their distribution of the IP inks to their outlets.

 

[jeffy3]

I have used Island Inkjet ink and it is good stuff. The fellow didn't
understand that you don't need to re-set the chip in order to use the
cartridge. You just lose the ink monitor capability. There isn't a re-setter
yet for the chip so don't worry about it. Just have them refill your
cartridges. They should have the correct inks by now as I have been in
contact with their main office a while ago and they were in the process of
setting up their distribution of the IP inks to their outlets.

Thanks Ron. Shouldn't I be worried that he didn't know that and that
is the business he is in? LOL!

 

[Ron P]

You can refill it, it's not a problem. They probally *were* refilling
them until they got complaints that the printer would say "cartridge is
empty". Near as i'm aware the printer will still print when the
cartridge thinks it's empty. Now it could be newer rom revisions or
other canons which take these cartridges will refuse to print. I can't
conferm this, I have seen a couple of people make reference to this
being an issue.

My IP4200 will print and I get a "nag screen" warning about low ink. This
can be turned off if you like but the printer prints just beautifully with
re-fill ink.

 

[zakezuke]

Amazon has really reasonable prices for the color carts, but the big
black is $29.99?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...5839/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-5664202-6639360?ie=UTF8

Big black $13 but typicaly $16.25.
The $29.99 you are quoting is probally the big black and the small
black together, which is the typical price.

Office depot it's $16 plus tax.

 

[jeffy3]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...5839/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-5664202-6639360?ie=UTF8

Big black $13 but typicaly $16.25.
The $29.99 you are quoting is probally the big black and the small
black together, which is the typical price.

Office depot it's $16 plus tax.

Cool. Thanks! Update: I called the IslandInk guy directly. He
explained he is aware of the work-around process where you disable the
nagging screens, but he is still refusing to do the job because he's
already had one customer demand a new printing head because they walked
away from the printer when the ink ran out and burned out the head.
He said as a franchise they even have waivers for customers to sign but
he won't do it because he wants to keep customers "happy".
He also told me that for the customers he can service, he recommends
they have a backup set of carts to put in the slots while he is filling
the others. I wish i had known that because for the day he had mine,
my slots were left empty.

 

[zakezuke]

Cool. Thanks! Update: I called the IslandInk guy directly. He
explained he is aware of the work-around process where you disable the
nagging screens, but he is still refusing to do the job because he's
already had one customer demand a new printing head because they walked
away from the printer when the ink ran out and burned out the head.
He said as a franchise they even have waivers for customers to sign but
he won't do it because he wants to keep customers "happy".
He also told me that for the customers he can service, he recommends
they have a backup set of carts to put in the slots while he is filling
the others. I wish i had known that because for the day he had mine,
my slots were left empty.

Canon typicaly replaces those printheads, but a good rule of thumb in
the service industry is always bet on stupid. Another Cartridge World
might refill the canon tanks, but I can see why one wouldn't.
According to the USA website they will replace the printer if it's
established that their product resulted in damage, which considering
using their product as intended results in diabled meters, a feature
designed by canon, I can see where they might be held accountable.

The statement regarding not leaving the slots empty is reasonable. I
probally wouldn't worry too much about a day but it's a reasonable
enough precaution.

 

[Martin]

So I am walking down the street six months ago and see a new Island Ink
Jet franchise and stopped in to chat with the guy to see what his store
is all about because I need a new printer. He recommends the Canon
ip4200 because of the ability for him to refill the individual ink
cartridges at a little more than 1/2 the price of new cartridges. So
last week three of our colors ran out at once so I dropped them off on
Saturday and he calls my wife this morning to say he can't refill them
because of some microchip in them and he expects to have a chip
re-setter by the end of the summer.

My questions:
1) why did he recommend this printer if he cannot refill it? were
the chips possibly not in use at the time?
2) my friend tells me he can still refill it but the computer will
still pop up a window showing the ink is low and if I continue to use
it I may void the warranty but I can choose to eventually turn off that
warning and proceed to print...why wouldn't the Island Ink Jet guy tell
us this?
3) why is the chip resetter taking until the end of summer?

Thanks in advance!

Just to pull all the information together because I've been actively
trying to confirm/discount issues with the iP4200 and other chipped
printers myself (I have the MP500, iX4000 too).

You can indeed refill the cartridges but a few things to note..

1. The new cartridges use the prism and the chip as a team to detect
"Empty" or "should be empty" cartridges.. ie: the prism will detect when
the cartridge is physically devoid of ink while the chip will have a
nozzle firing count running that tells the printer when it should be empty.

2. The detectors help the printer to a) protect your printhead and b)
stop you from refilling without Canon getting some indication from your
printer. Makes sense from their point of view as it allows them to stop
people lying somewhat about whether they've screwed up a printhead
themselves (using bleach or some poor ink) and getting warranty
replacements they don't deserve.

3. Usually people first refill when the cartridge has detected "low ink"
or declared itself "empty"... Leaving an empty cartridge in the printer
will stop the printer from working at all (unless you've already
disabled the ink level detection for that printer) but once you've
refilled enough for the prism to accept there's now ink in an "empty"
cartridge the printer will send a nag screen to the connected computer
noting that a non-standard cartridge has been detected.

You get 3 nag screens warning you of the damage you can do if you
continue but you still get the option to continue.. Once you get to the
third, continuing requires you to press and hold down the resume button
for 5 seconds. This then disables the ink level detection for the
cartridge(s) you've refilled and allows you to continue to print.



Now.. a few caveats... There have been reports, as noted by Zakezuke,
that indicate problems with some refilled cartridges.. These have been
limited and there's been no follow ups in the past 2 months but that's
not to say there's not an issue. So a few things to bear in mind..

1. Try to avoid allowing all your cartridges to run to the "ink low"
point and refill before then..

2. The printer may well be overwhelmed if you try to refill more than
one cartridge at a time when you still have to accept the nag screens
for each so if at all possible, try to refill one cartridge, replace it,
accept the nags for it and then repeat the process with the next cartridge.

3. As noted elsewhere you MUST keep an eye on your ink levels manually..
The ink levels are no longer shown for refilled cartridges so you are
very much on your own if you continue. Getting into a habit of regular
top-ups can only be a good thing at this point.

4. No matter what you do you'll still hit the usual problems with algae
and the sponge drying out so visit nifty-stuff forums for the info on
flushing Canon cartridges.. just bear in mind that the chips need to be
dry before you replace them in the printer so try to keep them that way.



For what it's worth I've avoided many of the problems by creating my own
CIS (Continuous Ink Supply) kits using the Canon OEM cartridges for the
job. It's by no means easy and I've learning new caveats and solutions
to the Canon range as I go...

Ultimately though, what's been said about the alternative chips, there's
no solid information on what is and isn't available so I wouldn't bet on
anything being commercially viable for at least 3 months and I'd guess
closer to 6 or more.. Canon really did do "well"* this time around..

(* that was irony.)

Hope that helps... and for future reference I'll keep an update on the
Canon chipped cartridge issue here:
http://www.continuousink.info/

..... seems smarter than repeating the info on here.