Can Intelligence Agencies Read Overwritten Data?

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someone said:

One comment--he says "I found this an extraordinary claim, and therefore
deserving of extraordinary proof.". Whether it needs "extraordinary proof"
depends on which end of the problem you're working. If you are Osama then
absent "extraordinary proof" that they can't it is best to assume that they
can and not be unpleasantly surprised if it turns out they can. If you are
hunting for Osama then it is best to assume that they can't and be
pleasantly suprised if they do.

And if you really _care_ whether a government intelligence agency can
decipher your files and you aren't working for a different government then
you need to carefully reconsider your lifestyle choices.
 
One comment--he says "I found this an extraordinary claim, and therefore
deserving of extraordinary proof.". Whether it needs "extraordinary proof"
depends on which end of the problem you're working. If you are Osama then
absent "extraordinary proof" that they can't it is best to assume that they
can and not be unpleasantly surprised if it turns out they can. If you are
hunting for Osama then it is best to assume that they can't and be
pleasantly suprised if they do.

And if you really _care_ whether a government intelligence agency can
decipher your files and you aren't working for a different government then
you need to carefully reconsider your lifestyle choices.

The gov't can read a disk that's been overwritten. Maybe. Sort of.
Sometines.

What they are looking for has to be worth dedicaticating the time of a
highly trained technician and maybe time on some very sophisticated
machinery. I expect these are in short supply these days.

What the government is looking for in a national security or federal
major crime case can be as simple as one readable block (512 bytes)
that has a fragment of a file that links you to a conspiracy, or gives
the crypyo people a crib that helps them crack a cypher, or has a name
or a phone number they can use to further the investigation. I don't
think they expect to get entire files from an overwritten disk drive.
 
Previously Al Dykes said:
The gov't can read a disk that's been overwritten. Maybe. Sort of.
Sometines.
What they are looking for has to be worth dedicaticating the time of a
highly trained technician and maybe time on some very sophisticated
machinery. I expect these are in short supply these days.
What the government is looking for in a national security or federal
major crime case can be as simple as one readable block (512 bytes)
that has a fragment of a file that links you to a conspiracy, or gives
the crypyo people a crib that helps them crack a cypher, or has a name
or a phone number they can use to further the investigation. I don't
think they expect to get entire files from an overwritten disk drive.

The key point is that they need a very strong suspicion to dedicate
the ressources to even find that block. And the data needs to be
there. So unless you know you have more to hide than a few bodies and
there is a chance they know or strongly syspect, overwriting is
perfectly safe, because they will not dedicate the needed ressources.

The second point is that Gutman's "better reading head" only works if
overwriting a zero with a one isn't something like 99% of a one + 20%
noise (and the equivalent for the other cases). The way HDD capacity
has grown, I wouldn't be surprised if it were like this. And all the
sophisted decoding dechniques, like soft-decision decoding, are
already used by modern disks, so they don't give an edge anymore
either.


Arno
 
Sure they can. I actually seen it done in movies. And besides, I've read it was
possible on the internet.
 
...
And if you really _care_ whether a government intelligence agency can
decipher your files and you aren't working for a different government then
you need to carefully reconsider your lifestyle choices.

Does that apply to Democrats too ;)
 
Sure they can. I actually seen it done in movies.

You mean like when they do a factor 500 zoom on a bog standard security camera? And they are STILL making films like this - don't they raealise we all now know better - or do we?
And besides, I've read it was possible on the internet.

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Hank said:
Sure they can. I actually seen it done in movies. And besides, I've read it was
possible on the internet.

And at them is Jedi Knights with laser swords, I saw it in movies ;-).

1. Usual MFM technology is not sensitive to a direction of a magnetic
field. It can recognise only presence of a field, but not written down
0 or 1. Optical methods do not possess necessary accuracy, because of
diffraction limit.
2. Theoretically restored rewritten sector will be doubtful. In a
usual mode at reading in modern HDD correction always works, and at
all not rewritten sector without correction is not authentic. In case
of the rewritten sector the probability of authentic reading decreases
in hundreds times, and no correction any more will help. For whom is
necessary the information if its reliability is not known?
3. Intelligence agencies have many much more effective and less
expensive methods of getting of the information ;-)

Leonid
 
Leo said:
And at them is Jedi Knights with laser swords, I saw it in movies ;-).

1. Usual MFM technology is not sensitive to a direction of a magnetic
field. It can recognise only presence of a field, but not written down
0 or 1. Optical methods do not possess necessary accuracy, because of
diffraction limit.

That might be true if the direction of the field was what was used to denote
ones and zeros. In fact it's a frequency encoding, which is why it's
called Frequency Modulation. I forget if it's ones or zeros that use the
higher frequency, but the fact that one uses a higher frequency means that
increased storage density is possible by using encodings that have a high
percentage of one or the other--that's the basis for RLL encoding.

As for "optical methods", who cares about "optical methods"? The technology
exists to see and move around individual atoms on a surface.
2. Theoretically restored rewritten sector will be doubtful. In a
usual mode at reading in modern HDD correction always works, and at
all not rewritten sector without correction is not authentic. In case
of the rewritten sector the probability of authentic reading decreases
in hundreds times, and no correction any more will help. For whom is
necessary the information if its reliability is not known?

I'm sorry, but parsing that paragraph will take more effort than I'm willing
to devote to the task.
 
}
} > } >> Sure they can. I actually seen it done in movies. And besides, I've read
} >> it was possible on the internet.
} >
} > And at them is Jedi Knights with laser swords, I saw it in movies ;-).
} >
} > 1. Usual MFM technology is not sensitive to a direction of a magnetic
} > field. It can recognise only presence of a field, but not written down
} > 0 or 1. Optical methods do not possess necessary accuracy, because of
} > diffraction limit.
}
} That might be true if the direction of the field was what was used to denote
} ones and zeros. In fact it's a frequency encoding, which is why it's
} called Frequency Modulation. I forget if it's ones or zeros that use the
} higher frequency, but the fact that one uses a higher frequency means that
} increased storage density is possible by using encodings that have a high
} percentage of one or the other--that's the basis for RLL encoding.

In classic FM the 1s are double the frequency of 0s. In modified FM it
is more complicated, and of course RLL is even more so.

Naturally, these technologies are ancient and this has relatively little
relevance to modern hard drives anyway.

cheers,

-*-
Charles M. Kozierok (mailto:[email protected] -- remove "X"s to mail)
Webslave, The PC Guide - <http://www.PCGuide.com>
Comprehensive PC Reference, Troubleshooting, Optimization and Buyer's Guides...
 
And at them is Jedi Knights with laser swords, I saw it in movies ;-).
1. Usual MFM technology is not sensitive to a direction of a magnetic
field. It can recognise only presence of a field, but not written down
0 or 1. Optical methods do not possess necessary accuracy, because of
diffraction limit.
2. Theoretically restored rewritten sector will be doubtful. In a
usual mode at reading in modern HDD correction always works, and at
all not rewritten sector without correction is not authentic. In case
of the rewritten sector the probability of authentic reading decreases
in hundreds times, and no correction any more will help. For whom is
necessary the information if its reliability is not known?
3. Intelligence agencies have many much more effective and less
expensive methods of getting of the information ;-)

I fully agree to this. Especially 3. is a very important point!

Why recover data from an overwritten disk when you can, e.g.,
- steal the disk
- bribe somebody
- hack the computer the disk is in
- ...

Arno
 
Arno said:
I fully agree to this. Especially 3. is a very important point!

Why recover data from an overwritten disk when you can, e.g.,
- steal the disk
- bribe somebody
- hack the computer the disk is in

If they are recovering data from an overwritten disk then presumably they
have already stolen the disk and/or or hacked the computer the disk is in.
Otherwise how did they get the disk?
 
Previously J. Clarke said:
Arno Wagner wrote:
If they are recovering data from an overwritten disk then presumably they
have already stolen the disk and/or or hacked the computer the disk is in.
Otherwise how did they get the disk?

I assume we are talking about an overwritten disk, that was, e.g.,
given away. A life disk should have the data in non-overwritten
form on it.

Arno
 
Arno said:
I assume we are talking about an overwritten disk, that was, e.g.,
given away. A life disk should have the data in non-overwritten
form on it.

While I am not one to underestimate the stupidity of the body politic, would
someone dangerous enough for a national intelligence agency to be
interested in his activities be stupid enough to give away a drive that
might compromise his operation?
 
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