Can a wet computer damate hard drive data.

[micky]

Someone on a tv court show says that his laptop was ruined when water
fell on it (and other things) from the apartment above.

He says he took it to Staples, but they wanted 150 for an estimate of
repair cost. He didnt'want to spend that. And he says that they
advised him not to turn the thing on as is, because he might lose the
contents of the memory, which I'll read as hard drive.

Is there any truth to the idea that turning on a wet or broken
computer can damage what is stored on the hard drive? It seems like
it it could get past all the electric and electronic hurdles to
actually move the "data arm", it would be super unlikely to write bad
data, or erase anything.

Was Staples just blowing smoke?


He didn't bother to take it anywhere else. Wouldn't an independent
shop done more for him than Staples did?


Thanks.


I know what one could/should do is take the harddrive out and let it
dry , and reinstall it in or copy the tdata to in a new or dried
computer.

 

[Paul]

Someone on a tv court show says that his laptop was ruined when water
fell on it (and other things) from the apartment above.

He says he took it to Staples, but they wanted 150 for an estimate of
repair cost. He didnt'want to spend that. And he says that they
advised him not to turn the thing on as is, because he might lose the
contents of the memory, which I'll read as hard drive.

Is there any truth to the idea that turning on a wet or broken
computer can damage what is stored on the hard drive? It seems like
it it could get past all the electric and electronic hurdles to
actually move the "data arm", it would be super unlikely to write bad
data, or erase anything.

Was Staples just blowing smoke?


He didn't bother to take it anywhere else. Wouldn't an independent
shop done more for him than Staples did?


Thanks.


I know what one could/should do is take the harddrive out and let it
dry , and reinstall it in or copy the tdata to in a new or dried
computer.

The other day, I was inspecting my hard drives, looking for the
breather hole, and I wasn't able to find it on the more modern
drives (500GB ones). Some of my older drives, it has a sticker marking
the breather hole. My oldest drive (oldest one still in regular usage),
the breather hole is very obvious on the top, and a spill on that drive,
could enter the hole itself. You can actually see the filter pad, on
the other side of the hole, on that one. Water still would have trouble
getting through, as the filter pad on the underside of the breather hole,
is a hepafilter.

When the air is damp outside the drive, the dampness can eventually get
inside. And that's because, the hard drive is not hermetically sealed.
The HDA needs to equilibrate with the outside atmosphere (exactly
WHY though, I don't know the answer to that - you'd think if the HDA was
sealed, it would be easier to control the flying height).

Some disks in the past, the platters start to rust, and stuff comes
off the platter. That is in extreme cases, where the external environment
causes a problem. When you open up a broken drive, one look at the
discoloration in the large filter pads around the outside edge
of the HDA, tell you how dirty things got inside the drive, before
it failed. And I've seen pictures of what should be bright white
filter pads, actually being black in color. So far from being a pristine
environment at all times, on a failure, things can get pretty dirty
in there.

I wouldn't want to speculate on what would happen, if a little
water (slightly capacitive) got on some of the traces leading
to the head assembly. You might get some read errors, but the
error correction would take care of some of them. Only 1 error
in a 1000 errors might leak through, just to give some idea
how bulletproof it is. It's not really bulletproof at all. And
is intended to take care of "infrequent errors", not a
continuous degradation. It's similar to pinching a cable - that
would cause a continuous degradation, unlike a cosmic ray which
might upset a single data bit in flight on some wires.

*******

A bare minimum of care, is to disassemble everything, and make
sure the contents are dry, before applying power. That is being
prudent. And you don't wait a month to disassemble it. You take
it apart immediately, so the drying can start immediately.

Some beverages may contain sugar. Which makes a mess, and can
affect mechanical things (like keyboard keys get stuck).

Some beverages will be active chemically (like spilling a Coke on it).
In which case, rinsing might be in order. You would not rinse a
hard drive, if it can be avoided. The hard drive can have a few
holes, covered with a silver sticker, which is how they gain
physical access to the HDA at the factory. You want those stickers
to remain intact. If the sticker got removed, the inside of the
drive is no longer "clean". Dirty air got in.

Assuming there are still breather holes on a hard drive,
you can to locate where that is, so an attempt to rinse the
exterior, doesn't get near that hole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_disk_drive

"Hard disk drives require a certain range of air pressures
in order to operate properly. The connection to the external
environment and pressure occurs through a small hole in the
enclosure (about 0.5 mm in breadth), usually with a filter
on the inside (the breather filter). If the air pressure is
too low, then there is not enough lift for the flying head,
so the head gets too close to the disk, and there is a risk
of head crashes and data loss."

"Breather holes can be seen on all disk drives - they usually
have a sticker next to them, warning the user not to cover
the holes."

"Very high humidity for extended periods can corrode the
heads and platters."

So while it's unlikely the water gets to something important,
it is also important to disassembly the thing, as soon as is
possible. On a laptop, it's pretty easy to remove the hard
drive cover, and pull the hard drive, to allow it to dry out.

The last user to report a water spill here, it was on a
desktop PC, and the water got into the PSU. The 120V AC
causes a sizzling sound, when the water hit it. If there is
enough water, the 120V can be conducted a far enough distance,
to touch sensitive electronics and damage them. An unplugged
laptop, the highest potential is the voltage on the battery
terminals. Which would still be enough to damage something,
if the voltage was conducted in just the right way.

What Staples is saying, is it's in their best business interest
to scare you. There is a *remote* possibility something could
get damaged. The $150 they charge, may or may not include
actual disassembly (which is the quickest way to remove any
bulk water present). A reputable shop, when doing an estimate,
actually takes something apart. While the disreputable shops,
just throw the thing in the corner, with a sticky note on it
to "call the customer back in a week, and tell them the motherboard
is bad". The quickest way to make a buck.

On a laptop, the LCD panel has a backlight and inverter strapped to the
back of it. The LCD panel on my laptop, has a few cracks where water
can get in. The inverter runs at 1000VAC, and any water that
gets near that, there could be conduction. Probably the inverter
will shut off on overload. But if the laptop is in the upright position,
it's probably the laptop base (with hard drive in it) that gets
most of the water, and less of the water gets into the panel area.
The inverter is not very powerful (about 3 watts of power each),
but the voltage is high enough to screw up other electronics
(like the panel sitting next to it). The chance of the inverter
voltage, getting applied to something in the base of the unit,
is minimal. An LCD panel with LED backlighting, doesn't have that
problem.

HTH,
Paul

 

[philo]

Someone on a tv court show says that his laptop was ruined when water
fell on it (and other things) from the apartment above.

He says he took it to Staples, but they wanted 150 for an estimate of
repair cost. He didnt'want to spend that. And he says that they
advised him not to turn the thing on as is, because he might lose the
contents of the memory, which I'll read as hard drive.

Is there any truth to the idea that turning on a wet or broken
computer can damage what is stored on the hard drive? It seems like
it it could get past all the electric and electronic hurdles to
actually move the "data arm", it would be super unlikely to write bad
data, or erase anything.

Was Staples just blowing smoke?


He didn't bother to take it anywhere else. Wouldn't an independent
shop done more for him than Staples did?


Thanks.


I know what one could/should do is take the harddrive out and let it
dry , and reinstall it in or copy the tdata to in a new or dried
computer.

Remove the drive from the machine and if it's wet or damp let it dry out
thoroughly. Chances are it's still good and you can get your data off it
by using an adapter and connect it to another machine.

The likelihood of water having gotten inside the drive is pretty close
to zero

 

[VanguardLH]

Is there any truth to the idea that turning on a wet or broken
computer can damage what is stored on the hard drive? It seems like
it it could get past all the electric and electronic hurdles to
actually move the "data arm", it would be super unlikely to write bad
data, or erase anything.

I know what one could/should do is take the harddrive out and let it
dry , and reinstall it in or copy the tdata to in a new or dried
computer.

Hard drives are not sealed. They are filtered. Once wetted, they need
chemical cleaning to remove contaminants from the platters, pivots, etc.
The HEPA filter in hard drives is to remove airborne contaminants, not
those dissolved in water, like minerals. You thought a flood was
composed of double distilled water? Take a HEPA filter and pour raw
sewage on top, let seep through, and gather what drips through. You
sure you want to drink that "water"? "tested and certified to remove
99.97% (9,997 out of 10,000) of particles as small 0.3 microns
(0.000012-inch) in size" (http://tinyurl.com/9zuclvc). Yeah, particles,
not dissolved contaminants.

http://www.storagesearch.com/disklabs-art3-floods.html
http://www.acsdata.com/flooded-hard-drives.htm
http://www.datarecovery.com/water_damage.asp
http://iosafe.com/external-hard-drive-flood-testing

Not all HDD recovery services are equal. Here's a video showing HDRC
that thinks just drying out the drive (to remove water visible on the
platters) is good enough to return the drive back to usable:

They don't show the use of any chemicals or treatments to remove residue
from the platters. After drying the internals, like the platters, they
should have showed where they followed by cleaning the platters. Maybe
the video only goes to the point of recovering data and the HDD would
get trashed since wear from any contaminants left after drying would
severely reduce the survivability of the device.

If you want to see some hard disks that have been flooded to see that
water got inside, here's some pics:

http://www.dataclinic.com/water-damaged-hard-disk-drive-1-800.jpg
http://www.dataclinic.com/water-damaged-hard-disk-drive-2-800.jpg

Whether the hard disk was actually flooded (submerged for hours) or
merely got wet (sprayed on) is unknown from your description of the
event. So just where did this boob (who didn't add flood insurance AND
include his electronics and instead tried to use the courts to recoup
his loss) place his computer? Was it on the floor and there was 2 feet
of standing water from a "leak" from the above apartment?

Flood insurance just doesn't cover when a river overflows, you get hit
by a tsunami, a levee breaks, or a tree falls into your roof during a
torrential rain. It also covers when the hose breaks to the laundry
washer, the tub is left running, the water heater's overpressure valve
opens, a malcontent breaks your window and shoves your garden hose
inside, or when extended hard rains overflow the capacity of the street
sewers. You don't have to be near a body of water to incur flood.
Since the guy went to court to recoup his loss because he didn't have
flood coverage in his insurance (or didn't have any insurance) means
this guy probably also doesn't do backups that are stored off-site.

If he doesn't want to pay for renter's insurance (with flood coverage
AND includes his electronics) then he should look at getting something
like http://iosafe.com/products-soloPRO-overview. Getting insurance
(and doing backups for his own data insurance) would probably be
cheaper, especially if bundled with his car insurance. Here's a gal
with money to burn: she burned and flooded one of these (be prepared to
mute the stupid audio music track) although the level of heat and
flooding doesn't come close to what the item is spec'ed to handle:

Here's another video of testing this product:

If users could just towel off their flooded hard disks, Iosafe wouldn't
have a market, especially considering the price for their products.

 

[philo]

Hard drives are not sealed. They are filtered. Once wetted, they need
chemical cleaning to remove contaminants from the platters, pivots, etc.
The HEPA filter in hard drives is to remove airborne contaminants, not
those dissolved in water, like minerals. You thought a flood was
composed of double distilled water? Take a HEPA filter and pour raw
sewage on top, let seep through, and gather what drips through. You
sure you want to drink that "water"? "tested and certified to remove
99.97% (9,997 out of 10,000) of particles as small 0.3 microns
(0.000012-inch) in size" (http://tinyurl.com/9zuclvc). Yeah, particles,
not dissolved contaminants.

http://www.storagesearch.com/disklabs-art3-floods.html
http://www.acsdata.com/flooded-hard-drives.htm
http://www.datarecovery.com/water_damage.asp
http://iosafe.com/external-hard-drive-flood-testing

Not all HDD recovery services are equal. Here's a video showing HDRC
that thinks just drying out the drive (to remove water visible on the
platters) is good enough to return the drive back to usable:

They don't show the use of any chemicals or treatments to remove residue
from the platters. After drying the internals, like the platters, they
should have showed where they followed by cleaning the platters. Maybe
the video only goes to the point of recovering data and the HDD would
get trashed since wear from any contaminants left after drying would
severely reduce the survivability of the device.

If you want to see some hard disks that have been flooded to see that
water got inside, here's some pics:

http://www.dataclinic.com/water-damaged-hard-disk-drive-1-800.jpg
http://www.dataclinic.com/water-damaged-hard-disk-drive-2-800.jpg

Whether the hard disk was actually flooded (submerged for hours) or
merely got wet (sprayed on) is unknown from your description of the
event. So just where did this boob (who didn't add flood insurance AND
include his electronics and instead tried to use the courts to recoup
his loss) place his computer? Was it on the floor and there was 2 feet
of standing water from a "leak" from the above apartment?

The OP said water got on the computer. I did not seen any mention of it
getting flooded. Almost for sure, the drive will be perfectly fine



<snip>

 

[larrymoencurly]

Someone on a tv court show says that his laptop was ruined
when water fell on it (and other things) from the apartment
above. He says he took it to Staples, but they wanted 150
for an estimate of repair cost. He didnt'want to spend that.
And he says that they advised him not to turn the thing on
as is, because he might lose the contents of the memory,
which I'll read as hard drive. Is there any truth to the idea
that turning on a wet or broken computer can damage what is
stored on the hard drive? It seems like it it could get past
all the electric and electronic hurdles to actually move the
"data arm", it would be super unlikely to write bad data,
or erase anything.

Turning on a hard drive that's gotten water into it will cause damage when it's turned on, even long after the water has dried out because of fine dirt particles and dissolved minerals deposited with the water, which will probably scrape data off the platters, making 100% successful data recovery less likely. If a platter or head was exposed to water, and they almost surely were if the drive had been dunked (as opposed to simply splashed), the drive has to be opened up and cleaned by a data recovery company (and nobodyelse) and maybe the platters removed and transplanted to another drive, whether or not the original drive was turned on or not. Do NOT open up the hard drive yourself because if that isn't done in a clean chamber or on a clean bench, the drive will be ruined immediately and require professional data recovery. Some recovery companies charge extra if the drive had been opened.

But if water merely got splashed into the computer, there's a good chance none got into the drive. I think most drives now have the vent opening on the bottom, maybe hidden behind the circuit board, but Seagates may have thevent in back, between the cover plate and aluminum casting, in the form ofa tiny channel that usually won't let a splash of water get in. Don't poke anything into any vent because it's really easy to tear the air filter there, which will immediately let in damaging dust. I'd remove the drive from the laptop and look carefully for water stains (dirt or mineral deposits), both on the drive and in the compartment where the drive sats, including by removing the drive circuit board (take precautions against static electricity -- put everything on anti-static pink bubble wrap or anti-static pinkfoam sheet, touch that pink material frequently, and don't wear long sleeves, socks, or shoes). Use a flashlight and magnifier. If it doesn't seem that water got into the drive (no stains around the vent hole. there's a good chance the drive is fine. OTOH how valuable is the data?

 

[~misfit~]

Somewhere on teh intarwebs Paul wrote:
[snip]

The other day, I was inspecting my hard drives, looking for the
breather hole, and I wasn't able to find it on the more modern
drives (500GB ones). Some of my older drives, it has a sticker marking
the breather hole. My oldest drive (oldest one still in regular
usage), the breather hole is very obvious on the top, and a spill on
that drive, could enter the hole itself. You can actually see the
filter pad, on the other side of the hole, on that one. Water still would
have
trouble getting through, as the filter pad on the underside of the
breather hole, is a hepafilter.

When the air is damp outside the drive, the dampness can eventually
get inside. And that's because, the hard drive is not hermetically
sealed. The HDA needs to equilibrate with the outside atmosphere
(exactly WHY though, I don't know the answer to that - you'd think if the
HDA
was sealed, it would be easier to control the flying height).

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Helium-Filled-Hard_Disk-hdd-western-digital,17573.html

Thought you might be interested. I know I'm replying to an old post and you
probably already know about this now. <shrug>
--
/Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)

 

[Paul]

Somewhere on teh intarwebs Paul wrote:
[snip]

The other day, I was inspecting my hard drives, looking for the
breather hole, and I wasn't able to find it on the more modern
drives (500GB ones). Some of my older drives, it has a sticker marking
the breather hole. My oldest drive (oldest one still in regular
usage), the breather hole is very obvious on the top, and a spill on
that drive, could enter the hole itself. You can actually see the
filter pad, on the other side of the hole, on that one. Water still would
have
trouble getting through, as the filter pad on the underside of the
breather hole, is a hepafilter.

When the air is damp outside the drive, the dampness can eventually
get inside. And that's because, the hard drive is not hermetically
sealed. The HDA needs to equilibrate with the outside atmosphere
(exactly WHY though, I don't know the answer to that - you'd think if the
HDA
was sealed, it would be easier to control the flying height).

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Helium-Filled-Hard_Disk-hdd-western-digital,17573.html

Thought you might be interested. I know I'm replying to an old post and you
probably already know about this now. <shrug>

Hey, thanks for posting that.
I hadn't seen that.

And frankly, that's unbelievable. If you've ever worked with
helium, you know its impossible to seal that stuff. That new hard
drive, will be drained before too long. (Wires come out of the
HDA, and the helium is going to leak around those wires. Many common
materials are porous enough, to allow the helium to pass.)

And with the price of helium now, who can afford the stuff ?

*******

http://www.extremetech.com/computin...n-digital-launching-helium-filled-hard-drives

"The manufacturing challenges, however, are considerable. The drive
must remain sealed through both the enormous variations in air
pressure during the shipping process and an estimated 3-5 year
life span. One of the significant challenges of long-term helium
sequestration in an individual drive is the fact that the helium
molecule’s small size and inert nature make it ideal for
leak detection. Keeping it in one place, in other words, is a
significant engineering challenge. HGST, Hitachi’s one-time storage
unit that WD now owns, has been working on the problem for the
better part of a decade."

*******

I think I'll wait a few years, before buying one of those
Just to see how many of them fail.

Should be interesting to see how they make the HDA. Can an O-ring
hold back helium ? Will five-minute epoxy hold it ? What a crazy idea.

Paul