Booting from secondary ATA controller

[_|_|_]

I'm planning to transfer a boot drive to a new machine, so I've got to
solve the classic chicken vs egg problem: How to get the new ATA
drivers onto the boot drive.

I'm trying to solve this by hooking up a second ATA controller in the
original machine, hooking the boot drive to it, and booting from that
drive. Presumably, I'll take both the controller and the boot drive
over to the new machine and bootstrap the system with them.

Problem is, I can't get the original machine (P4T) to boot from the
secondary controller. I've tried both Adaptec ash-1233 and a Maxtor
(Promise) Ultra. If I hook the boot drive to the motherboard ATA, I
can boot and then read and write drives that are hooked to either
controller above, so the controllers are working fine.

Adaptec instructs to hit F3 etc etc to designate a certain drive as a
boot drive. Done.

P4T's BIOS has a boot sequence menu which allows designation of a
'SCSI drive.' I presume that's the correct option, but I've also
tried setting it to the normal priorities. Both fail.

I'd like to avoid reformatting and reinstalling XP to the drive, but I
can't see any other options. Am I overlooking something re the BIOS
settings? Has anyone been able to get an Asus system to boot from a
non-motherboard ATA controller?

 

[_|_|_]

I'm planning to transfer a boot drive to a new machine, so I've got to
solve the classic chicken vs egg problem: How to get the new ATA
drivers onto the boot drive.

I'm trying to solve this by hooking up a second ATA controller in the
original machine, hooking the boot drive to it, and booting from that
drive. Presumably, I'll take both the controller and the boot drive
over to the new machine and bootstrap the system with them.

Problem is, I can't get the original machine (P4T) to boot from the
secondary controller. I've tried both Adaptec ash-1233 and a Maxtor
(Promise) Ultra. If I hook the boot drive to the motherboard ATA, I
can boot and then read and write drives that are hooked to either
controller above, so the controllers are working fine.

Adaptec instructs to hit F3 etc etc to designate a certain drive as a
boot drive. Done.

P4T's BIOS has a boot sequence menu which allows designation of a
'SCSI drive.' I presume that's the correct option, but I've also
tried setting it to the normal priorities. Both fail.

I'd like to avoid reformatting and reinstalling XP to the drive, but I
can't see any other options. Am I overlooking something re the BIOS
settings? Has anyone been able to get an Asus system to boot from a
non-motherboard ATA controller?

I should add:

The devices/disks sign on as expected in all cases during POST.
The system does go thru POST, but when it's expected to access the
boot drive, the screen just stays black. No discernable drive
activity.

I've tried disabling the regular hard drive in the boot sequence menu
as well as moving it down and/or moving the SCSI device upward.
No luck there either.

I'm still presuming that SCSI is the correct setting, but I've tried
both ways. I haven't tried completely disabling the motherboard's
controller hardware via the BIOS's Main menu (chip settings at the
bottom). Maybe later, I'm tired of swapping cables and rebooting for
now.

I know I've seen posts here about someone using this method to get a
new system running, but I haven't been able to find them.

And finally...
If anyone is thinking about buying an Adaptec ash-1233, be aware that
they are apparently just rebranding a Silicon Image board. The board
signs on as Silicon Image in device manager. It also has a unique
feature: The connector for the ribbon cable doesn't face outward--
it faces the next PCI board. So expect to remove the board every time
you want to plug/unplug a ribbon cable. Retarded engineers.

LL

 

[Paul]

I'm planning to transfer a boot drive to a new machine, so I've got to
solve the classic chicken vs egg problem: How to get the new ATA
drivers onto the boot drive.

I'm trying to solve this by hooking up a second ATA controller in the
original machine, hooking the boot drive to it, and booting from that
drive. Presumably, I'll take both the controller and the boot drive
over to the new machine and bootstrap the system with them.

Problem is, I can't get the original machine (P4T) to boot from the
secondary controller. I've tried both Adaptec ash-1233 and a Maxtor
(Promise) Ultra. If I hook the boot drive to the motherboard ATA, I
can boot and then read and write drives that are hooked to either
controller above, so the controllers are working fine.

Adaptec instructs to hit F3 etc etc to designate a certain drive as a
boot drive. Done.

P4T's BIOS has a boot sequence menu which allows designation of a
'SCSI drive.' I presume that's the correct option, but I've also
tried setting it to the normal priorities. Both fail.

I'd like to avoid reformatting and reinstalling XP to the drive, but I
can't see any other options. Am I overlooking something re the BIOS
settings? Has anyone been able to get an Asus system to boot from a
non-motherboard ATA controller?

You could try a repair install of WinXP, when you get to the new
machine. You will have to reinstall any service packs that are
not slip-streamed into the installer disks. Plus any WindowsUpdate
stuff.

Your presumption here, is that the disk controller boards you
are going to use, will work when plugged into the target system.
There is no guarantee that will happen - if you insist on stripping
all the components out of the computer case, you could get a rude
surprise when trying to bring up the new system (happened to me...).

I notice in a picture of the ash-1233 from Adaptec, there is
a Sil0680 on there. Now, I don't know if it has been redesigned
or not, but Siliconimage bought a company called CMD, and
CMD made a 0680. That chip, could in fact be very old. The
chip is used in some soft-raid products, so is (ab)used for
all sorts of stuff.

In terms of procedure, what I would do is:

1) Leave the original computer assembled in its case. At least
the motherboard and PSU can stay there, making it easier to
backtrack if you run into problems. You could try updating
the IDE driver on the old computer, to use the standard
Microsoft IDE driver, as at least on my Win2K machine, that
allowed a transplanted disk to boot. Maybe WinXP would be
more cranky.

2) For safety, clone the original boot disk to a new disk. That
gives you a backup, in case there is a finger problem or something
else goes wrong (like busted hardware breaks something, PSU
fries disk etc).

3) Assemble new system on your work table. This will require you
to have a spare power supply. Move as much stuff as necessary from
the old computer to the system on your table. Place a thick
telephone book underneath the motherboard, to support it.

4) Test the new system with memtest86+, before connecting any
hard drives. This will tell you whether the processor, RAM,
and basic computing are working. This is just to reduce the
possibility of registry corruption when bringing up the new
system.

5) Connect hard drive and CDROM drive. Do the repair install. This
will not affect any installed programs or settings, and that
is the main benefit.

http://www.michaelstevenstech.com/XPrepairinstall.htm

6) Once the computer can boot from the hard drive, at that point
you can consider removing the old motherboard from the old
computer case. Install the new system. By doing it this way,
it is easy to work on the system, at least until you get
to the point that you know it is going to work. Then, you
can expend the extra energy doing a neat install, tie wrapping
cables and the like.

This method is a little extra work, but in the worst case you
won't end up quite as frustrated if things don't work out.

HTH,
Paul

 

[_|_|_]

You could try a repair install of WinXP, when you get to the new
machine. You will have to reinstall any service packs that are
not slip-streamed into the installer disks. Plus any WindowsUpdate
stuff.

Your presumption here, is that the disk controller boards you
are going to use, will work when plugged into the target system.
There is no guarantee that will happen - if you insist on stripping
all the components out of the computer case, you could get a rude
surprise when trying to bring up the new system (happened to me...).

Your advice is on target as usual, Paul. Actually I'm trying to cover
the same problems you addressed by building a completely new system,
with new case, supply, etc. I imaged the boot partitions (C:, D of
the original system and restored them to another drive. That way, I
have a backup image + a complete bootable backup drive.

I initially tried to just boot take the new drive to the new box and
boot it. It did get part of the way. Surprising that the drivers
just 'kind of' worked. I thought they'd most likely fail completely.

Since I can't think of a way to load drivers for the new board onto
the drive while it's still in the old system, I thought I'd get the
boot drive to boot from a secondary ATA controller, then take that
controller and drive to the new system. I didn't even get through the
first part of that--the drive won't boot from either the Adaptec or
the Maxtor/Promise controller.

Given that the new system's controller can't talk to the drive
reliably, I'm not sure I trust the XP Repair-Install to write to it
correctly.

 

[_|_|_]

You could try a repair install of WinXP, when you get to the new
machine. You will have to reinstall any service packs that are
not slip-streamed into the installer disks. Plus any WindowsUpdate
stuff.

Your presumption here, is that the disk controller boards you
are going to use, will work when plugged into the target system.
There is no guarantee that will happen - if you insist on stripping
all the components out of the computer case, you could get a rude
surprise when trying to bring up the new system (happened to me...).

Your advice is on target as usual, Paul. Actually I'm trying to cover
the same problems you addressed by building a completely new system,
with new case, supply, etc. I imaged the boot partition of the
original system and restored it to another drive. That way, I have a
backup image + a complete bootable backup drive.

I initially tried to just boot take the new drive to the new box and
boot it. It did get part of the way. Surprising that the drivers
just 'kind of' worked. I thought they'd most likely fail completely.

Since I can't think of a way to load drivers for the new board onto
the drive while it's still in the old system, I thought I'd get the
boot drive to boot from a secondary ATA controller, then take that
controller *and* drive to the new system. Unfortunately, I didn't
even get through the first part--the drive won't boot from either the
Adaptec or the Maxtor/Promise controller. That's the main hang at the
moment.

I notice in a picture of the ash-1233 from Adaptec, there is
a Sil0680 on there. Now, I don't know if it has been redesigned
or not, but Siliconimage bought a company called CMD, and
CMD made a 0680. That chip, could in fact be very old. The
chip is used in some soft-raid products, so is (ab)used for
all sorts of stuff.

Great. Yes, the controller is an Adaptec ASH-1233cs ATA adapter,
with Silicon Image chip marked: SII0680ACL144, 4h1403, 0453.

I also tried booting with the maxtor/promise ultra-133 TX2 (Maxtor
OEMs the promise controller of the same name). The board normally
appears in Dev Mgr as a SCSI controller, so I thought that setting the
BIOS to boot from SCSI would be the way to go. Apparently not. I
think that solving that would get me home.

There don't seem to be any other BIOS options for booting from a
second ATA controller, so I may be stuck there.

In terms of procedure, what I would do is:

[good advice, snipped cause I have a new box set up]

5) Connect hard drive and CDROM drive. Do the repair install. This
will not affect any installed programs or settings, and that
is the main benefit.

http://www.michaelstevenstech.com/XPrepairinstall.htm

Given that the new system's ATA controller can't talk to the drive
reliably, I'm not sure I trust the XP Repair-Install to write to it
correctly. It seems like the same chicken-egg quandry. Am I
overlooking something?

 

[_|_|_]

OK, my latest brainstorm was to hook up a SATA controller. Originally
I was going to use it to extend the number of motherboard SATA ports
on the new machine, but since I haven't been able to get anything to
boot from the secondary ATA controllers, maybe they'll boot from a
SATA drive.

The controller is a quad-port Syba with a Silicon Image SATA3114-a01,
chip: SII3114CT176. I think there's a newer SII3124, but I couldn't
locate any boards that use it.

First off...I had the last slot open in the P4T. Tried the board. No
POST whatsoever...Black screen. Pulled a board in slot 3. System
POSTs, but no signon from the SATA board BIOS. Before giving up, I
pulled the board in slot 2 (first slot after the video card. FINALLY
the BIOS signed on and the system detected 'new hardware.' I'm
just formatting a drive now, so maybe I'll try to create an image and
boot from it tomorrow. It think it did state 'SCSI' somewhere in the
BIOS signon, so maybe this will finally work (yeah, right).

What an enormous pain. Are the slot problems due to interrupt
assignment in the P4T? I can't imagine what else would cause that.

 

[Paul]

OK, my latest brainstorm was to hook up a SATA controller. Originally
I was going to use it to extend the number of motherboard SATA ports
on the new machine, but since I haven't been able to get anything to
boot from the secondary ATA controllers, maybe they'll boot from a
SATA drive.

The controller is a quad-port Syba with a Silicon Image SATA3114-a01,
chip: SII3114CT176. I think there's a newer SII3124, but I couldn't
locate any boards that use it.

First off...I had the last slot open in the P4T. Tried the board. No
POST whatsoever...Black screen. Pulled a board in slot 3. System
POSTs, but no signon from the SATA board BIOS. Before giving up, I
pulled the board in slot 2 (first slot after the video card. FINALLY
the BIOS signed on and the system detected 'new hardware.' I'm
just formatting a drive now, so maybe I'll try to create an image and
boot from it tomorrow. It think it did state 'SCSI' somewhere in the
BIOS signon, so maybe this will finally work (yeah, right).

What an enormous pain. Are the slot problems due to interrupt
assignment in the P4T? I can't imagine what else would cause that.

According to the manual, slot 2 shares with the AGP slot. So slot 2
is not that much different than the other slots.

When it comes to compatibility between new cards and old motherboards,
we've discussed this before and not come up with any good theories.
I keep seeing mention of issues mixing PCI2.1 and PCI2.2, but there
is supposed to be backward compatibility there. On some really old
motherboards, the BIOS may not understand whatever it is reading
in the Config space of the device - the PNP code in the BIOS may
need to make decisions about whether to allocate resources or not,
based on the kind of card it is. If the card cannot be recognized,
it is possible the BIOS ends up "in the weeds". The issue doesn't
seem to be powering, as one cranky machine had both 3.3V and 5V
available on the PCI slots.

With a repair install, you should have an opportunity to press
F6 at some point, and offer drivers to the OS on a floppy. Your
mobo CD may have a "makedisk" utility, for making up the floppy
for you. That is how you get "foreign" drivers onto a new system.

If both motherboards have "standard" Southbridge ports, it is
possible that both boards can use the default Microsoft IDE driver.
That is how I've moved a Win2K install between computers, without
a need for a repair install. The process is pretty tedious,
due ot all the "new hardware" messages when the system boots,
but after a number of reboots I got everything squared away.

I got that recommendation from Google. It was suggested that if
you go to Device Manager, and update the driver for the Southbridge
and let the system find a driver, you would be offered the Microsoft
driver as an alternative. I did that, and then when I moved the
disk it worked. This won't always work, because some Southbridges
don't work with the standard driver, and then you'll need the
repair install method.

So, I don't know exactly what your objective is - to have the boot
drive on the Southbridge, or to have the boot drive on a third
party controller. I don't really understand how the boot.ini file
works, because it has some kind of disk numbering scheme, and
when your third party controller is moved there, I don't know
if the boot loader is smart enough to figure out any difference
in numbering or not. (I'm not knowledgeable enough to get this
kind of transition right in just one try, which is why I like
the old and new machines to both still be usable.)

Good luck with your project. Post back whatever recipe works
for you...

Paul

 

[_|_|_]

According to the manual, slot 2 shares with the AGP slot. So slot 2
is not that much different than the other slots.

When it comes to compatibility between new cards and old motherboards,
we've discussed this before and not come up with any good theories.

I was considering keeping some SATA drives on the older P4T and P4T-E
systems, but this doesn't inspire confidence. I'm betting that Syba's
tech support doesn't exist. Your comments about the older chipset are
probably very relevant, and I doubt that Adaptec or any other
formerly-reliable company is making a better quad SATA. Everything
seems to be prefabbed Silicon Image now. Adaptec didn't even bother
to have SI stamp 'Adaptec' in their BIOS signon.

I keep seeing mention of issues mixing PCI2.1 and PCI2.2, but there
is supposed to be backward compatibility there. On some really old
motherboards, the BIOS may not understand whatever it is reading
in the Config space of the device - the PNP code in the BIOS may
need to make decisions about whether to allocate resources or not,
based on the kind of card it is. If the card cannot be recognized,
it is possible the BIOS ends up "in the weeds". The issue doesn't
seem to be powering, as one cranky machine had both 3.3V and 5V
available on the PCI slots.

Yeah, I'm not sure what to make of it, but I'd at least like to get
some consistent repsonse. Having the board black-screen the system in
one slot and work well in another seems precarious.

I've saved/printed the rest of your reply--some very good ideas. Re
boot.ini: If I can get another drive to boot on the old P4T system,
I'll take that as a first step. Otherwise I may just try the repair
install. (This process really should be much easier)

Here's a mystery: With no provocation on my part, the P4T POST/boot
phase came up with a menu that said
"Boot from:
ATA drive,
SCSI drive,
CDROM,
....
"

I don't remember the exact menu, but it looks like what I want it to
do. Problem is...I don't know how or why that menu came up, or how to
cause that to happen (normal boot drive was in place at the time).

 

[Paul]

Here's a mystery: With no provocation on my part, the P4T POST/boot
phase came up with a menu that said
"Boot from:
ATA drive,
SCSI drive,
CDROM,
....
"

I don't remember the exact menu, but it looks like what I want it to
do. Problem is...I don't know how or why that menu came up, or how to
cause that to happen (normal boot drive was in place at the time).

There are hidden functions that are not documented in the Asus
user manual. I've heard of these when reading other motherboard
newsgroups, but have never managed to read in actual print,
any documentation of the functions supported. So, it is very much
an "accidental discovery" kind of thing. Kind of like finding
"Easter eggs" in games or programs.

Paul

 

[rutger]

There are hidden functions that are not documented in the Asus
user manual. I've heard of these when reading other motherboard
newsgroups, but have never managed to read in actual print,
any documentation of the functions supported. So, it is very much
an "accidental discovery" kind of thing. Kind of like finding
"Easter eggs" in games or programs.

Paul

Try pressing the F8 during bootup to get to the "Boot From" Menu.