Boot from USB Flash Disk

[Bob]

Is it possible to boot from a flash memory disk connected to a USB
port? It is assumed that the flash disk is formatted as a boot disk.

 

[dj_lord_2000]

Hi, I think this is possible with some motherboards. It just depends if
your BIOS allows it. open up your bios screen and have a poke about or
look in the user manual for your motherboard.

 

[P Ruetz]

Is it possible to boot from a flash memory disk connected to a USB
port? It is assumed that the flash disk is formatted as a boot disk.

I got my Dell to boot from the flash drive.

1. Make it bootable. There are several utilities that will do it.
2. Make sure your machine is set up to boot from the drive before your hard
drive.
3. I had to disable booting from my internal card reader before it would
boot from a flash drive. This was the tricky part for me.

After that it was no problem.

Peter

 

[kony]

Is it possible to boot from a flash memory disk connected to a USB
port? It is assumed that the flash disk is formatted as a boot disk.

Yes

Flash Thumbdrives, even SD cards in memory readers can be
booted, providing the motherboard properly supports this...
which many do, and even more claim to, but finding out if
your board actually can boot from any particular USB device
is something you may have to try to be certain of, unless
you find someone with exact same combo of parts that has
demonstrated they work.

The more foolproof way to do it is to use a compactflash
card and CF-IDE adapter. That will work with just about any
motherboard because compactflash was made to work in ATA
mode. Many if not most CF cards may use PIO mode instead of
UDMA though, which is slower and uses more CPU time. I
believe Sandisk's higher-end cards are UDMA capable
(probably others now too but you'd need to see that as a
feature of the card to be sure), yet an UDMA supportive
CF-IDE adapter must also be used.

It depends on what you want to boot too. Flash drives may
have a removable media descriptor that changes how windows
handles them. Certain IDE drivers may not work with them
(for example, when I had a thumbdrive booting Win2k, it
wouldn't boot (finish booting) if the nVidia nForce2 IDE
driver was installed instead of the MS IDE driver. DOS is
dumber though, no such issues there.

 

[DaveW]

It depends on the particular motherboard's settable BIOS settings.

 

[Bob]

The more foolproof way to do it is to use a compactflash
card and CF-IDE adapter. That will work with just about any
motherboard because compactflash was made to work in ATA
mode. Many if not most CF cards may use PIO mode instead of
UDMA though, which is slower and uses more CPU time. I
believe Sandisk's higher-end cards are UDMA capable
(probably others now too but you'd need to see that as a
feature of the card to be sure), yet an UDMA supportive
CF-IDE adapter must also be used.

Will this mode preserve the fast characteristics of flash memory that
you realize on USB?

It depends on what you want to boot too. Flash drives may
have a removable media descriptor that changes how windows
handles them. Certain IDE drivers may not work with them
(for example, when I had a thumbdrive booting Win2k, it
wouldn't boot (finish booting) if the nVidia nForce2 IDE
driver was installed instead of the MS IDE driver. DOS is
dumber though, no such issues there.

I am just thinking about my next machine which is a ways off. I would
like to use non-volatile memory for the two main disks in my setup -
the boot disk and the backup disk. I will periodically clone these to
hard drives for archive purposes.

I believe flash memory is coming down in price such that you could use
a 32GB flash drive. I keep my drives very clean - no more than 15GB on
the two mentioned above. Therefore when 32GB flash memory comes down
to $100 per stick, I might want to give it a try. By then I am sure I
can find an appropriate mainboard. However if CF-IDE is as fast or
faster than USB, or is better overall, then that would be the way to
go.

 

[Bob]

It depends on the particular motherboard's settable BIOS settings.

I will have to borrow my son's flash stick, format it as a boot drive
and see if my BIOS will support it.

But that is moot because if I ever used flash disks I would build a
new machine around it.

 

[kony]

Will this mode preserve the fast characteristics of flash memory that
you realize on USB?

It still has low latency, "seek" time. PIO mode will be
slower than USB2 if the system's USB2, and the flash disk's
supportive USB2 bridge chip, are good. Some are better than
others, and none are particularly good at USB2 with many
small files which is ironic since that is exactly where
flash memory's low latency should really shine.

CF using UDMA should be better than USB2, but I don't have
any of the newest/fastest CF cards on a UDMA capable adapter
so it is only theoretical.

I am just thinking about my next machine which is a ways off. I would
like to use non-volatile memory for the two main disks in my setup -
the boot disk and the backup disk. I will periodically clone these to
hard drives for archive purposes.

One of the problems with flash for the OS is what OS we
often use, Windows. Windows incessantly writes to the drive
even if the swap file is turned off or delegated to a
ramdisk. Other applications have an annoying tendency to do
so too until one manually disables certain features (if it
is possible to do so). For example TV tuner cards, the
moment you load up the application it may then be writing to
the HDD every X # of seconds to support a replay feature.
Other apps may write less often but still quite a bit, like
editing applications with undo features.

I am wondering why you would use the flash for the main
drives then "periodically clone these to hard drives for
archive purposes". It seems at least as useful to do it the
other way around, use the hard drives for the OS and clone
the important data to the more reliable but more limited
write cycle storage, the flash memory.

I believe flash memory is coming down in price such that you could use
a 32GB flash drive. I keep my drives very clean - no more than 15GB on
the two mentioned above. Therefore when 32GB flash memory comes down
to $100 per stick, I might want to give it a try. By then I am sure I
can find an appropriate mainboard. However if CF-IDE is as fast or
faster than USB, or is better overall, then that would be the way to
go.

If considering speed then you will have to see benchmarks of
the particular product you are considering, to make a good
choice. Performance can vary considerably with the flash
drive or CF cards themselves, though a CF-IDE adapter (one
that supports UDMA) is a fixed entity, only a pin-adapter
that will be no faster or slower whether you picked up a
generic on ebay or something more expensive from a US
company... the latter would probably cost about 4X as much.

 

[kony]

I will have to borrow my son's flash stick, format it as a boot drive
and see if my BIOS will support it.

But that is moot because if I ever used flash disks I would build a
new machine around it.

New as-in modern (at that time), thus tending to be faster
than what you're using now, or not?

I find flash to be more appropriate for aging systems, since
flash is still slower than a hard drive it is less of a
bottleneck to a new system to use a mechanical hard drive,
then the older less used system which will tend to have
fewer I/O to the drives since it is in a secondary or
tertiary role to the main system... and I can only assume
you would want to use the newer, faster, system for your
main use system.

 

[Bob]

I am wondering why you would use the flash for the main
drives then "periodically clone these to hard drives for
archive purposes".

The reason for the archive to HDD is obvious. I do not want to lose
the data.

I am thinking out loud. I do not know why I would want to use flash
disks other than it is relatively new technology and it is purportedly
faster than HDDs.

It seems at least as useful to do it the
other way around, use the hard drives for the OS and clone
the important data to the more reliable but more limited
write cycle storage, the flash memory.

I would use flash disks for both the OS and the online backup disk -
and periodically clone both to HHDs for archive purposes.

If considering speed then you will have to see benchmarks of
the particular product you are considering, to make a good
choice. Performance can vary considerably with the flash
drive or CF cards themselves, though a CF-IDE adapter (one
that supports UDMA) is a fixed entity, only a pin-adapter
that will be no faster or slower whether you picked up a
generic on ebay or something more expensive from a US
company... the latter would probably cost about 4X as much.

It sounds like I am a bit early with this.

 

[Bob]

New as-in modern (at that time), thus tending to be faster
than what you're using now, or not?

I come up with a list of specs - like flash disks - and the head of
tech support at Directron makes his recommendations based on the
latest available parts. He has never let us down so I continue to rely
on him to inform me of what is the best for my needs.

since flash is still slower than a hard drive

I have not used flash disks so I do not know what they are like. But
the people who have used them on USB claim they are a lot faster.

 

[Sjouke Burry]

I come up with a list of specs - like flash disks - and the head of
tech support at Directron makes his recommendations based on the
latest available parts. He has never let us down so I continue to rely
on him to inform me of what is the best for my needs.




I have not used flash disks so I do not know what they are like. But
the people who have used them on USB claim they are a lot faster.

Be aware of the limited number of write cycles
flash disks have, if you use them as system
disk they will have a rather short live.

 

[kony]

The reason for the archive to HDD is obvious. I do not want to lose
the data.

No, i mean why TO HDD? HDD is an order of magnitude, if not
2 or 3, less reliable than flash so long as the # of write
cycles is kept within flash capability. So it would be far
moreso for archival purposes than OS use. Plus, who really
needs to archive things like apps and OS, when there are
installation disks that can reinstall them? I can see
having at least a viable backup of the working partition for
quick recovery from some problems, but even that is, if done
once a day, hundreds of backups at best (avg system lifespan
being considered), that many write cycles, while windows
will exceed that # of writes if you just leave a box sitting
idle for a day.

I am thinking out loud. I do not know why I would want to use flash
disks other than it is relatively new technology and it is purportedly
faster than HDDs.

It is not faster, usually. You could use CF-IDE adapters
with UDMA support and RAID0 a couple flash disks, and that
would be pretty fast... but flash write speed is far lower
than the mechanical HDD, and read speed too. Latency
sensitive apps would benefit, but how many of those do you
use, and that have only small sized file I/O? It's not that
flash is bad for this, but put in perspective if you make
backups anyway, it may not be of benefit to use as your main
system drive unless you had some particular use that
benefitted. Uber-silent system maybe, or shockproof for a
car MP3 player or other mobile application.

I would use flash disks for both the OS and the online backup disk -
and periodically clone both to HHDs for archive purposes.

Ok, it can work... most just don't like the cost per GB yet.
Blame Windows too, if the flash technology had matured
during the Win98 era, 4GB of flash for $100 would seem
ideal.

It sounds like I am a bit early with this.

It can work, but mainly you need to itemize and control disk
writes. Don't do it for speed, ever, because USB2 will
never be able to meet, let alone beat, PATA or SATA modern
drive performance. USB2 itself is also a bottleneck, as are
some bridge chips if you use hubs or readers for the flash.

 

[kony]

I come up with a list of specs - like flash disks - and the head of
tech support at Directron makes his recommendations based on the
latest available parts. He has never let us down so I continue to rely
on him to inform me of what is the best for my needs.


I have not used flash disks so I do not know what they are like. But
the people who have used them on USB claim they are a lot faster.

Faster than what?
They can seem faster in some uses, compared to a USB based
HDD. Still far slower than same HDD put inside the system
on PATA or SATA.

 

[Bob]

No, i mean why TO HDD? HDD is an order of magnitude, if not
2 or 3, less reliable than flash so long as the # of write
cycles is kept within flash capability.

I am using the acronym "HHD" for "hard disk drive".

It is a reliable archive device.

Are you saying that flash disks are significant;y more reliable? If
so, then they are the way to go, no need for HHDs.



--

"First and last, it's a question of money. Those men who own the earth
make the laws to protect what they have. They fix up a sort of fence or
pen around what they have, and they fix the law so the fellow on the
outside cannot get in. The laws are really organized for the protection of
the men who rule the world. They were never organized or enforced to do
justice. We have no system for doing justice, not the slightest in the
world."
--Clarence Darrow

 

[Bob]

Be aware of the limited number of write cycles
flash disks have, if you use them as system
disk they will have a rather short live.

Indeed. But I believe the manufacturers are improving the write cycles
so that it is not a practical issue anymore. I believe one maker will
guarantee 1 million cycles.


--

"First and last, it's a question of money. Those men who own the earth
make the laws to protect what they have. They fix up a sort of fence or
pen around what they have, and they fix the law so the fellow on the
outside cannot get in. The laws are really organized for the protection of
the men who rule the world. They were never organized or enforced to do
justice. We have no system for doing justice, not the slightest in the
world."
--Clarence Darrow

 

[Bob]

Faster than what?
They can seem faster in some uses, compared to a USB based
HDD. Still far slower than same HDD put inside the system
on PATA or SATA.

Hmm... I was misinformed. People have been telling me that their USB
flash disks are lightening fast compared to their hard disks for
routine file operations.

You can see why I have not jumped into this - I need to learn a lot
more.


--

"First and last, it's a question of money. Those men who own the earth
make the laws to protect what they have. They fix up a sort of fence or
pen around what they have, and they fix the law so the fellow on the
outside cannot get in. The laws are really organized for the protection of
the men who rule the world. They were never organized or enforced to do
justice. We have no system for doing justice, not the slightest in the
world."
--Clarence Darrow

 

[kony]

I am using the acronym "HHD" for "hard disk drive".

It is a reliable archive device.

Are you saying that flash disks are significant;y more reliable? If
so, then they are the way to go, no need for HHDs.

For archival use, yes flash is much more reliable. Primary
limitations are only the cost /GB and # of write cycles...
which tend to be high enough that archival use wouldn't be a
problem but operating system use (windows) could be.

 

[Bob]

For archival use, yes flash is much more reliable. Primary
limitations are only the cost /GB and # of write cycles...
which tend to be high enough that archival use wouldn't be a
problem but operating system use (windows) could be.

Very interesting. Then I need to wait until 16GB USB flash disks are
cheap and use them instead of these removable hard disks I use now. If
the boot hard disk becomes corrupt I can clone it back to the previous
archive on the USB flash disk.

We have been talking about desktop PCs. The benefits of flash disks
would be better with portables because of lower power consumption.


--

"First and last, it's a question of money. Those men who own the earth
make the laws to protect what they have. They fix up a sort of fence or
pen around what they have, and they fix the law so the fellow on the
outside cannot get in. The laws are really organized for the protection of
the men who rule the world. They were never organized or enforced to do
justice. We have no system for doing justice, not the slightest in the
world."
--Clarence Darrow

 

[kony]

Very interesting. Then I need to wait until 16GB USB flash disks are
cheap and use them instead of these removable hard disks I use now. If
the boot hard disk becomes corrupt I can clone it back to the previous
archive on the USB flash disk.

We have been talking about desktop PCs. The benefits of flash disks
would be better with portables because of lower power consumption.

Yes, eventually I was planning on putting one in a notebook
but it's power usage is still primarily the board, CPU and
screen, I don't expect that much better runtime from it
instead of higher reliability in mobile uses.