Best strategy hard drive swapping?

[HaHaHoHoHeeHee]

I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
without USB.

I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
swapping of drives from one machine to another.

Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive caddies.
All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I think-fastest machines
are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new drives at some time, so
that will mean going to the SATA standard? and can these new
drives be put in 2000/800MHZ machines and can they be mixed with
the older 8GB drives? The two main machines are dell and amd
duron.

At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want maximum
interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB upgrades mean
I may have to reflash the bios on one of them, install more cards,
etc.-trying to keep my new hardware installations to a minumum.

I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until I
read a thread on this group that some have had problems with these
caddies. Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard caddy
and what implications does that have in case I buy a new drive and
put it in the same machine with the older drives (ATA?). I am not
sure what the differences are between these standards in terms of
installation compatibility?

If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best? What
should I look for in the specs specifically? If there are better
alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I thought of using
an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found out you cannot do
that.

Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.

 

[Peter]

I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others

without USB.

I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
swapping of drives from one machine to another.

Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive caddies.
All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I think-fastest machines
are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new drives at some time, so
that will mean going to the SATA standard? and can these new
drives be put in 2000/800MHZ machines and can they be mixed with
the older 8GB drives? The two main machines are dell and amd
duron.

At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want maximum
interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB upgrades mean
I may have to reflash the bios on one of them, install more cards,
etc.-trying to keep my new hardware installations to a minumum.

I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until I
read a thread on this group that some have had problems with these
caddies. Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard caddy
and what implications does that have in case I buy a new drive and
put it in the same machine with the older drives (ATA?). I am not
sure what the differences are between these standards in terms of
installation compatibility?

If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best? What
should I look for in the specs specifically? If there are better
alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I thought of using
an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found out you cannot do
that.

Why do you need to swap drives occasionaly?
What OS do you run on those PCs?
Do you need to preserve data on them during swap?

 

[Timothy Daniels]

If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
What should I look for in the specs specifically?

I archive bootable system partitions on large capacity HDs
housed in removable trays (i.e. "caddies"), each partition
immediately bootable if I have to revert to a backup system.
My "mobile racks" are made by Kingwin, and I use the model
with the fan mounted horizontally in the base of the tray - it
keeps the HD quite cool without the whine of little fans:
http://www.kingwin.com/pdut_detail.asp?LineID=&CateID=25&ID=136
The trays are all-aluminum, a cut above several other brands
in that regard, and they are available from many retail websites.
A Nextag/Google/PriceWatch search will reveal dollar prices in
the mid- to low-teens for the rack/tray pair, and about $10 for
extra trays. Just use the model nos. in your search.

I also find that round cables are a great help in hooking
things up inside the PC case while keeping some room for
air flow. I use the ones with aluminum braid shields. There
seems to be just a few manufacturers - most of them in China -
and many retail websites that carry them at a broad range of
prices, but SVCompucycle seems to have the best combination
of selection and price:
http://www.svcompucycle.com/cables-ata-100-133-round-cables.html


*TimDaniels*

 

[Timothy Daniels]

I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
swapping of drives from one machine to another.

Do you plan to swap system partitions or data partitions?
What OS will be used?

*TimDaniels*

 

[Rod Speed]

I have several older systems, some
with old USB 1.0 and others without USB.

I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
swapping of drives from one machine to another.

Why do you actually want to do occasional swapping of drives ?

Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive caddies.
All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I think-

Correct, those are just two names for the same thing.

fastest machinesare 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new drives
at some time, so that will mean going to the SATA standard?

You dont have to go SATA currently. Eventually
you wont be able to buy ATA drives at the same
price as SATA but that hasnt happened yet.

and can these new drives be put in 2000/800MHZ machines
Yes.

and can they be mixed with the older 8GB drives?
Yes.

The two main machines are dell and amd duron.

At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't
have to worry about jumper settings on that one machine;

It gets more complicated with removable drive bays. There is a real
sense in which you are stuck with the lowest common denominator.

not sure about the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range,

That can be a real problem because WD has a different jumper
config for single drive on a cable and for master of a pair, if cable
select isnt used. Thats a real problem with removable drive bays
because that may require a jumper change of the internal drive
depending on whether there is a removable drive plugged in or not.

Not always tho, some bios see the WD drives
when not jumpered correctly and some dont.

with one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may
be USB upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want
maximum interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB upgrades
mean I may have to reflash the bios on one of them, install more cards,
etc.-trying to keep my new hardware installations to a minumum.

You will however need the removable drive bays and that is in some
ways worse than adding USB2 to a system that doesnt have it.

I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until I read
a thread on this group that some have had problems with these caddies.

Yep, thats the main problem with them.

Not that the USB route is problem free tho.

Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard caddy
and what implications does that have in case I buy a new drive
and put it in the same machine with the older drives (ATA?).

That is still possible if you have an ATA/SATA converter in the old systems.

I am not sure what the differences are between
these standards in terms of installation compatibility?

The short story is that removeable drives are allowed in
the SATA standard and not in the older ATA standard.

That doesnt mean that the ATA removable bays never work,
but it does mean that you cant be sure they will work reliably.

If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?

Many like Kingwin.

What should I look for in the specs specifically?

Thats the main problem with those, the specs dont really help. Its very
much a trial and error process with something that flouts the standard.

If there are better alternatives, I'd like to hear them.

Lot to be said for just installing the drives internally as
long as you dont want to play musical drives very often.

Originally I thought of using an extra long IDE
ribbon cable until I found out you cannot do that.

Yeah, they flout the standard even more comprehensively.

Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.

I'd consider again whether you really need to play musical drives much.

And networking the PCs is another alternative to musical drives too.

 

[HaHaHoHoHeeHee]

Thanks for the reply. Hate to sound ungrateful, but an earlier thread in
this group (see google) argues that these Kingwin drives are not ATA
standard compatible and have caused problems especially when using
multiple drives. This is not my experience but comments by others here.

 

[HaHaHoHoHeeHee]

Hey thanks Rod for your usual cryptic, yet informational reply.

Yes, the KingWin drive users have reported problems, one reason I posted
before buying caddies.

Networking is a good suggestion, but right now I have alot on my table.

Seems from earlier posts that these caddies have more problems if there
is more than one in use on the same system. So, I guess I have to look
for a vendor that offers a money back warranty in case they do not work
on the dell or amd machine.

What is the generally worst scenario with using these. Do people often
mess up their drives/data trying them? Or is it usually just a matter of
them not being recognized or data transfer errors?

Cannot use SATA, system does not have right MB interface for them as is,
so will stick to ATA, that limits me to 80 GB, right?

 

[Ron Reaugh]

I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
without USB.

I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
swapping of drives from one machine to another.

Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive caddies.

I keep the cases off most my machines and have HDs hanging or sitting on the
desktop for this purpose but trays work.

All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I think-fastest machines
are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new drives at some time, so
that will mean going to the SATA standard? and can these new
drives be put in 2000/800MHZ machines and can they be mixed with
the older 8GB drives?

Yes, using an SATA addon card.

The two main machines are dell and amd
duron.

At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want maximum
interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB upgrades mean
I may have to reflash the bios on one of them, install more cards,
etc.-trying to keep my new hardware installations to a minumum.

The mobo BIOS may not support large HDs when using the mobo's IDE
controller. Use an addon PCI card that does support large HDs.

I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until I
read a thread on this group that some have had problems with these
caddies.

Ignore such nay sayers.

Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard caddy

Ignore all such recommendation from wacko speedo.

and what implications does that have in case I buy a new drive and
put it in the same machine with the older drives (ATA?). I am not
sure what the differences are between these standards in terms of
installation compatibility?

Assume no problems as the SATA will be via an addon card.

If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?

www.kingwin.com

I use the KF-83.

What
should I look for in the specs specifically?

Fans, shock mounting and price.

If there are better
alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I thought of using
an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found out you cannot do
that.

You can usually get away with a 24 inch one.

 

[Ron Reaugh]

The short story is that removeable drives are allowed in
the SATA standard and not in the older ATA standard.

Usual nonsense. SATA allows for -hot swap- and ATA does not. Power down
swapping works just fine in ATA and the spec says nothing against it. Cable
Select works most conveniently in such ATA situations.

That doesnt mean that the ATA removable bays never work,
but it does mean that you cant be sure they will work reliably.

Utter nonsense.

Thats the main problem with those, the specs dont really help. Its very
much a trial and error process with something that flouts the standard.

Utter nonsense.

 

[Ron Reaugh]

Yes, the KingWin drive users have reported problems,

Can you cite a thread? This sounds like FUD.

 

[Rod Speed]

Thanks for the reply. Hate to sound ungrateful, but an
earlier thread in this group (see google) argues that
these Kingwin drives are not ATA standard compatible

No removable caddys are.

and have caused problems especially when using multiple drives.

Just as true of all the other caddys apart from the SATA ones.

 

[HaHaHoHoHeeHee]

I keep the cases off most my machines and have HDs hanging or sitting
on the desktop for this purpose but trays work.

Thanks for the reply, but I think the above is a very bad idea. Even if
you are careful you still have problems with vibrations, etc and the
airflow to the box is not correct with the case removed (i usually use a
outside fan when I remove the case).

Yes, using an SATA addon card.

I want to limit the amount of new hardware at this time. Will stick to
ATA, though I think this limits me to 80GB per drive?

The mobo BIOS may not support large HDs when using the mobo's IDE
controller. Use an addon PCI card that does support large HDs.


Ignore such nay sayers.

Well it makes some sense to me since the IDE interfaces are so touchy
such that adapters and longer cables are not recommended. I would think
that their could be problems with the additional connections with a
caddy.

Ignore all such recommendation from wacko speedo.


Assume no problems as the SATA will be via an addon card.



www.kingwin.com

I use the KF-83.

looks good, but as I said others have had problems with them at least
reported in this group. maybe not related to the hardware, maybe their
configurations or user error.

Fans, shock mounting and price.


You can usually get away with a 24 inch one.

originally I just thought since electrons travel at the speed of light
there should be no problem with a longer cable,but others have warned me
against this.

 

[Rod Speed]

Hey thanks Rod for your usual cryptic, yet informational reply.

Yes, the KingWin drive users have reported problems,
one reason I posted before buying caddies.

Networking is a good suggestion, but right now I have alot on my table.

Its actually rather easier to do than removable drive caddys.

Seems from earlier posts that these caddies have more
problems if there is more than one in use on the same system.

They can be a problem with just one too.

So, I guess I have to look for a vendor that offers a money back
warranty in case they do not work on the dell or amd machine.

Trouble is that the problems can show up later,
and bite you on the bum when you least expect it.

What is the generally worst scenario with using these.
Do people often mess up their drives/data trying them?

Yes, they can lose data. You dont see dead drives tho.

Or is it usually just a matter of them not being recognized

Yes, particularly with WD drives because of the jumper problem.

or data transfer errors?

Thats quite common when problems are seen.

Cannot use SATA, system does not have right MB interface for them as is,

You can get converters between the ATA the motherboard
supports and the SATA the drive supports.

so will stick to ATA, that limits me to 80 GB, right?

Nope, there are 400G ATA drives around,
and virtually everyone has a 250G ATA drive.

 

[Rod Speed]

Can you cite a thread?

Just search on kingwin.

This sounds like FUD.

Thats what you claimed about the IBM 75GXP drives too.

 

[Rod Speed]

Usual nonsense.

We'll see...

SATA allows for -hot swap- and ATA does not. Power down swapping works just
fine in ATA and the spec says nothing against it.

The problem with ATA removable drive bays is that they
flout the CABLE specs in the ATA standard. What you
have with every removable drive bay is nothing like
what the ATA standard specifys FOR THE CABLE.

Cable Select works most conveniently in such ATA situations.

Wrong again. The problem is that a single drive is at the
end of the cable and the bay needs to be on the middle
connector if there is more than one drive on that cable.

Utter nonsense.

This is from the clown that made the same claim
about the IBM 75GXPs that managed to generate a
full class action suit, which IBM has just caved in on.

Utter nonsense.

This is from the clown that made the same claim
about the IBM 75GXPs that managed to generate a
full class action suit, which IBM has just caved in on.

 

[HaHaHoHoHeeHee]

Rod Speed wasn't the only one that was complaining about these caddies.
Google this group for the thread, several users had problems with
removable caddies, but do not know if this was necessarily caused by
non-compliant ATA hardware.

 

[Ron Reaugh]

Thanks for the reply, but I think the above is a very bad idea. Even if
you are careful you still have problems with vibrations,

There is no vibration problem with any HD mfg-ed since 1999.

I want to limit the amount of new hardware at this time. Will stick to
ATA, though I think this limits me to 80GB per drive?

Depends on the mobo BIOS and mobo ATA controller. There is no ATA 80GB
limit per se.

Well it makes some sense to me since the IDE interfaces are so touchy

IDE interfaces are NOT "so touchy".

such that adapters and longer cables are not recommended.

Good 24 inch cables, while not in spec, generally work.

I would think
that their could be problems with the additional connections with a
caddy.

There are no such problems with most well designed caddies.

originally I just thought since electrons travel at the speed of light
there should be no problem with a longer cable,but others have warned me
against this.

Note who the 'others' are.

 

[Shel]

I have been using a CRU-DataPort caddy for a few years. It works well.

 

[Ron Reaugh]

We'll see...


The problem with ATA removable drive bays is that they
flout the CABLE specs in the ATA standard.
Nope.

What you
have with every removable drive bay is nothing like
what the ATA standard specifys FOR THE CABLE.

Nope.

 

[Ron Reaugh]

I have been using a CRU-DataPort caddy for a few years. It works well.

Some of the older CRU ones are plastic without fans and therefore drive
ovens causing early drive death.