re:
!> versus the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish: telling user
agents who our
!> intended audiences is, by language, as best we can...which is why I'm
*also*
!> setting lang in the HTTP headers and in page meta tags
What ? You don't set a language/culture in web.config, too ?
There's a use for overkill ! ( only kidding... )
I don't see too clearly the purpose of declaring a single language for a
web page.
I do see a use for declaring specific language attributes in a
*collection* of xml documents,
so that individual documents can be parsed for a particular language
content.
But, ymmv...
I'd still be interested in knowing what the reply is to your bug report.
I bet you'll get back : "That's by design". <g>
Don't forget to let us all know what happens with that, OK ?
Thanks for an interesting discussion.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq :
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======================================
Juan,
In theory, I like your idea of investigating "the standard"; but, in
practice it has serious problems, as it often does. First, you are
referring to the XML standard, which is not as appropriate as HTML and
XHTML standards. Second, none of them are crystal clear on best
practices for I18N. There is a lot of *legal* (by the standard)
syntax, that makes no sense, or makes some sense without being clearly
best. The W3C site often states something to the effect of, "some are
doing this, some are doing that, on your own site, at least do
something and only time will tell what is best."
Check out these fine examples, which mirror my syntax, on the W3C site.
Internationalization Best Practices: Specifying Language in XHTML &
HTML Content
http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-lang/#ri20040429.092928424
Tutorial: Declaring Language in XHTML and HTML (Draft)
http://www.w3.org/International/tutorials/language-decl/en/slides/Slide0160.html
Juan, you wrote:
But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's
*attribute* values is unneeded, since they must
be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language
identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 4646
(
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
You're not setting it for "the tag's *attribute*", you're setting it
for the *contents*, all contents, of the element (unless overridden by
a sub-setting), which makes perfect sense so that I don't have to set
it individually on every child element--that is the power of a
hierarchy! You seem to be focused on the technical, with some
misunderstanding, versus the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish:
telling user agents who our intended audiences is, by language, as best
we can...which is why I'm *also* setting lang in the HTTP headers and
in page meta tags.
, Lee
re:
!> I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do
should work
Lee,
From :
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/
"A special attribute named xml:lang may be inserted in documents to
specify the
language used in the contents and attribute values of any element in
an XML document."
If anything, I can see xml:lang being declared for specific content
values, for example :
<p xml:lang="en-GB">What colour is it?</p>
<p xml:lang="en-US">What color is it?</p>
Then, an xml parser could identify regional US and British spellings
but, given that *all* the attribute values
must be in English in an html doc, what would be the purpose of
declaring xml:lang for the html markup ?
A similar explanation is given here :
http://www.simonstl.com/xmlprim/xmlupdate/atts.html
---000---
<SECTION>
<DESCRIPTION xml:lang="en">
Caesar begins by describing the geography of Gaul.
</DESCRIPTION>
<QUOTE xml:lang="la">
Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae,
aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli
appellantur.
</QUOTE>
---000---
That's perfectly good usage for xml:lang, as a parser could
selectively identify content in different languages.
But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's
*attribute* values is unneeded, since they must
be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language
identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 4646
(
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
So, I think that requisite pretty well establishes the futility
of setting xml:lang for all the attributes in an html document.
If anything, it seems that the xml:lang attribute is included in the
html server tag for compatibility purposes, or perhaps out of
ignorance.
If there's a need to identify that the *contents* of a particular
markup tag are in a
specific language, that identification can be included in the tag
itself, for example :
<div lang="MX-es" xml:lang="MX-es">
Algo de contenido en español mejicano.
</div>
That makes a lot more sense than setting xml:lang for the attribute
values in the html tag.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq :
http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en español :
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======================================
I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do
should work.
ASP.NET Web Server Controls Overview
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/zsyt68f1.aspx
Note the distinction between HTML Server Controls and Web Server
Controls in the document. Also, note the explanation
of "pass-through" attributes for HTML Server Controls.
Two quotes that sum it up:
1. Any HTML element on a page can be converted to an HTML server
control by adding the attribute runat="server".
2. You can add any attributes you need to an HTML server control
and the page framework will render them without
any change in functionality.
, Lee
Juan,
I appreciate your trying to help, but you're wrong, and you are the
one who is confused. :]
I am *not* disputing that when inserted programmatically, the
xml:lang attribute renders to the browser. I did just
that as a work around (right after I discovered this bug); but, I
should not have to.
I am *not* confusing html attributes with runat="server" attributes,
as you call them. Using your logic, none of the
declarative (html) attributes should render to the browser after I
add the runat="server" in ASP.NET; yet all of them
(xmlns, lang, and dir) do--except xml:lang.
I started with an html element with 4 attributes (xmlns, lang,
xml:lang, and dir) all set declaratively. With *no*
5th attribute of runat="server", all 4 attributes render. If I add
the 5th attribute of runat="server", which does
not and should not render, I no longer get all 4 attributes that
should render (xmlns, lang, xml:lang, and dir), I
only get 3 (xmlns, lang, and dir). My logic says I should get 4,
your says I should get 3? It would be 4 or 0, and
4 is right. Not 0...and not 3.
When I add runat="server", it does not magically make the xml:lang
attribute a server-side attribute, while keeping
the other three attributes as "html" attributes. All four are still
"html" attributes--which should render.
I think the simplification of my example may be confusing you. It
is odd that, in my example, I set runat="server"
but do not have any server-side attributes. (I have all 4 as
literal strings, for simplicity of an example.) Well,
in my real-world use, I do have server-side attributes, which I want
set declaratively (no code-beside and no
script). I have:
<html runat="server" xmlns="
http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
xml:lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
dir="ltr">
Both of those declarative explicit localization expressions should
work without my having to write any more
"procedural" (code-beside) code or script. It actually does work
fine for the lang attribute--as it should; but not
for the xml:lang attribute--***which is a bug***.
, Lee
re:
!> I think you are misunderstanding, Juan.
Well, I think you are misunderstanding *me*.
re:
!> I had the xml:lang attribute in the html tag (declaratively),
like this:
...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
Yes, because it's standard html.
re:
!> If I simply add runat="server"
That declares the control to run server side.
For any attribute to be programmed server-side you need a script,
just as you need a script to modify any server control's
attributes.
Did you run the sample page I sent ?
It iterates throught the attributes for the html server control,
and shows that the xml:lang attribute *is* added programmatically.
re:
!> If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang
attribute that
!> renders without runat="server", all of the (declarative)
attributes are
!> rendered to the browser--except the xml:lang attribute! That is
a bug.
I think you're confusing html attributes with runat="server"
attributes.
Html attributes can be inserted in normal html.
Server-side attributes must be inserted in code.
Maybe I'm not explaining this as well as I should.
Try to get someone else's opinion on this matter, if you don't
accept mine.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq :
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======================================
I think you are misunderstanding, Juan. I had the xml:lang
attribute in the html tag (declaratively), like this:
<html xmlns="
http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US"
lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang attribute
that renders without runat="server", all of the
(declarative) attributes are rendered to the browser--except the
xml:lang attribute! That is a bug.
<html runat="server" xmlns="
http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
Cordially,
Lee
Here's a full example which shows that the xml:lang attribute is
added programmatically :
attributes.aspx:
----------------------
<%@ Page Language="C#" AutoEventWireup="True" %>
<html xmlns="
http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server"
id="Myid" >
<script language="C#" runat="server">
void Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e)
{
Myid.Attributes.Add("xml:lang", "es");
Message.InnerHtml = "<h4>The html control attributes collection
contains:</h4>";
IEnumerator keys = Myid.Attributes.Keys.GetEnumerator();
while (keys.MoveNext())
{
String key = (String)keys.Current;
Message.InnerHtml += key + "=" + Myid.Attributes[key] + "<br />";
}
}
</script>
<head id="Head1" runat="server">
<title>The html control attributes collection</title>
</head>
<body>
<form id="Form1" runat="server">
<h3>HtmlControl Attribute Collection Example</h3>
<br />
<span id="Message" enableviewstate="false" runat="server" />
</form>
</body>
</html>
----------------
I don't think it's a bug to have to add an attribute
programmatically,
because the runat="server" tag only *declares* the html control
as a programmable control.
To actually program it, you must use a script.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq :
http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en español :
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======================================
Thanks, Juan.
I already added similar code to a page event in my masterpage
code-beside.
elHtml.Attributes.Add("xml:lang",
Resources.GlobalLang.ContentAudienceLanguage)
To me, that is a temporary workaround. I still want to
understand whether the "eating" of the attribute I
originally
posted about is a bug, or if this is actually happening for a
reason.
Cordially,
Lee
Hi, Lee.
re:
!> <html runat="server" xmlns="
http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
!> no xml:lang attribute is rendered to the browser!
!> Remove the runat="server", and, voila, the xml:lang
attribute is rendered.
Try this :
<html xmlns="
http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server"
id="someID">
<script runat="server">
someID.Attributes("xml:lang") = "en-US"
</script>
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq :
http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en español :
http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
I think I have discovered a bug in ASP.NET, related to I18N.
In ASP.NET 3.5 I have to set runat="server" on the html
element to use explicit expressions. It appears that
ASP.NET
eats the xml:lang attribute on the html element when it is set
to runat="server".
Of course I want to replace the hardcoded "en-US" values with
(resource) explicit expressions; but, for
simplicity,
try this:
<html runat="server" xmlns="
http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
...And you will find that no xml:lang attribute is rendered to
the browser! Remove the runat="server", and,
voila,
the
xml:lang attribute is rendered. :[
...Any ideas?
Cordially,
Lee
