Another FAILED n-Tier / OOP Web project.......

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THIS IS the DOTNETJUNKIES MESSAGE
-------------------------
We're Sorry
As many of you know we have recently launched SqlJunkies.com. We have
overhauled our runtime and will be using it on DotNetJunkies.com also.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


YEP, DOTNET JUNKIES REDESIGN....

What happened to the OOP n-Tier stuff? Huhhhhhh??????

Where is that 2-SECOND CHANGE?

WOW...TOTAL REBUILD OF THE ENTIRE ENGINE!!!!

HOW COME THEY COULDN'T GET IT RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DESIGN PHASE??????

BUT OOP and n-TIER IS SUPPOSED TO FLEXIBLE AND EXTENSIBLE TO ALL VAST DESIGN
CHANGES ISN'T IT?

BUT GUESS WHAT? IT DIDN"T HAPPEN.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

IT MEANS YOU CAN"T PREDICT THE FUTURE in YOUR DESIGN PHASE!!!!

EVEN A MODERATELY COMPLEX site like DotNetJunkies can't do it, why in the
world should you think that a corporate site that has COMPETITORS be able to
do it??????

Did it ever occur to you that as the web site gets older, it will get more
features and more requirements that will NEVER be designed for in the DESIGN
PHASE of OOP n-Tier methodology?

WEB SITES ARE NOT LIKE HOUSES or BUILDING CARS where you have a BLUEPRINT
(OR OBJECT MODEL) of what to make. What good is your OBJECT MODEL if the KEY
things change all the time?

OH, but what about INHERITANCE? Well, doesn't seem to be used that
effectively by the DotNetJunkies site does it? IF they did use Inheritance,
why did they have to do a complete engine redesign?

Well it's because they want a CLEAN site......INHERITANCE = LEGACY = LOWER
QUALITY = 2 CODE BASES = MORE MAINTENANCE = MORE WORK = MORE TIME WASTED


You OOP n-TIER fanactics have to face up to the fact the the OOP model can't
work in the business world? Where are all those design patterns?

If these guys can't do it, why should you MVP's and OOP FANATICS who don't
even have a web site be able to do it?

BUILDING A PRODUCTION WEB SITE IS A LOT HARDER THEN JUST ANSWERING QUESTIONS
ON THE NEWSGROUPS or TEACHING ANY and ALL .NET CLASSES OR EVEN GIVING OUT A
PDC SEMINAR....



EVEN THE .NET PORTAL and DOTNETNUKE have LOTS AND LOTS of trouble
implementing changes...
Why should you expect it to be any different for an even larger e-Commerce
Fortune 500 web site?????


STICK THAT IN YOUR EAR!!!!!!

THOSE ARE THE FACTS. PERIOD.

IF YOU are STILL so BRAINWASHED on the n-TIER / OOP BENEFITS you are in
COMPLETE DENIAL OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE REAL WORLD.

AND THAT"S WHY YOUR JOBS ARE GOING OFFSHORE. BECAUSE OOP AND N-TIER
ARCHITECTURE PRODUCE LOW QUALITY PRODUCTS and IF I am going to get LOW
quality products why should I pay TOP consulting fee prices....????



THIS IS THE REST OF THEIR MESSAGE...
------------------------------------------------
We're Sorry
As many of you know we have recently launched SqlJunkies.com. We have
overhauled our runtime and will be using it on DotNetJunkies.com also. With
the new runtime and build we implemented a central users database so you
don't have to sign up on multiple sites. The downfall is that we had to put
a hold on the database currently running DotNetJunkies. What that means to
you is that we can't add new articles, news, events, or even members.
Although, new members can sign up on SqlJunkies Here and when we launch the
new build of DotNetJunkies you will automatically be a member.
Rest assured we have a ton of articles and how to's on hold so when we
launch you'll see a ton of new stuff.

Again we're sorry for any hassle we may be causing and the new build will be
up shortly.
 
Hello nospam,

How's MOM and POP these days? I trust that they''re doing well and progressing nicely
with their Windows Server, IIS, ASP.NET, MSDN subscription and all that at the usual
bargain prices.

Regards,
Fergus
 
You make some interesting points but you seem a bit bitter. Did you know
that there are many excellent brands of decaffinated coffee on the market.
The site looks very nice to me.
HOW COME THEY COULDN'T GET IT RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE?
Click to expand...

Project management 101. The old time, quality, resources triangle. Subtract
from any item it and you will need to increase one of the others to produce
the same result.
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DESIGN PHASE??????
Click to expand...

They probably could'nt afford it. I recently quoted someone $200,000 for a
project. They were shocked. Then I told them that was just for the design
and specification.
BUT OOP and n-TIER IS SUPPOSED TO FLEXIBLE AND EXTENSIBLE TO ALL VAST DESIGN
CHANGES ISN'T IT?
Click to expand...

If written properly. It would seem to me that vast design changes would be
best off with a new design. Did you ever read a book on oo programming?
IT MEANS YOU CAN"T PREDICT THE FUTURE in YOUR DESIGN PHASE!!!!
Click to expand...

I can predict with absolute 100% certainty that I'd always like my system to
be able to make me a cheeseburger.
world should you think that a corporate site that has COMPETITORS be able to
do it??????
Click to expand...

Let's say a JP Morgan sees that if they had a nice system that was auditable
they could open a new credit derivitave market and could make 20 million a
day. I think they could afford a good design.
Did it ever occur to you that as the web site gets older, it will get more
Click to expand...
features

Is that a trick question?
and more requirements that will NEVER be designed for in the DESIGN
PHASE of OOP n-Tier methodology?
Click to expand...

Totally incorrect. Let's just take a simple example of a customer
maintenance screen that you may want to add another field too. Good design
leads to flexibility and understandability wether it's oo design or
whatever. Poor design leads to less flexibility. In a way I have to agree
that the multi-tier design may be seen somewhat as a limitation of MS.
Specifically that you might need to take a logical layer and move it to a
physical layer on a different machine for performance reasons. Maybe a
talking point would be using a Sun/Oracle system instead. No design is
perfect because the world is not perfect (possibly with the exception of my
world, hopefully I'll get to go out rollerblading down to West Broadway
Soho, 41 degrees and sunny in the Big Apple).
WEB SITES ARE NOT LIKE HOUSES or BUILDING CARS where you have a BLUEPRINT
(OR OBJECT MODEL) of what to make. What good is your OBJECT MODEL if the KEY
things change all the time?
Click to expand...

What good is the blueprint of a house if you decide you don't want a
basement anymore.
OH, but what about INHERITANCE? Well, doesn't seem to be used that
effectively by the DotNetJunkies site does it? IF they did use Inheritance,
why did they have to do a complete engine redesign?
Click to expand...

Sounds like they are overusing Inheritance in a similar way people overuse
web services. Look at the PageBase module of the Duwamish sample for a good
way to use Inheritance.
BUILDING A PRODUCTION WEB SITE IS A LOT HARDER THEN JUST ANSWERING QUESTIONS
ON THE NEWSGROUPS or TEACHING ANY and ALL .NET CLASSES OR EVEN GIVING OUT A
PDC SEMINAR....
Click to expand...

That seems rather obvious. You might want to figure out a bit of list
etiquette. The purpose of these lists is learning.
EVEN THE .NET PORTAL and DOTNETNUKE have LOTS AND LOTS of trouble
implementing changes...
Why should you expect it to be any different for an even larger e-Commerce
Fortune 500 web site?????
Click to expand...

So should we feel sorry for dotnetnukes?
THOSE ARE THE FACTS. PERIOD.
Click to expand...

Yes, you are often stating facts. Does saying period make them more of a
fact.
IF YOU are STILL so BRAINWASHED on the n-TIER / OOP BENEFITS you are in
COMPLETE DENIAL OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE REAL WORLD.
Click to expand...

Can you propose a different way to go? I'm sure we would all be facinated to
see something. Don't confuse corporate, media and MS brainwashing towards
their particular products with solid scientific design benefits.
AND THAT"S WHY YOUR JOBS ARE GOING OFFSHORE. BECAUSE OOP AND N-TIER
ARCHITECTURE PRODUCE LOW QUALITY PRODUCTS and IF I am going to get LOW
quality products why should I pay TOP consulting fee prices....????
Click to expand...

Are you saying that programmers in India don't use oo design?

The other response I saw on the C# list basically completly responded to
your posting with three words "Mom and Pop" That seems to be the scenario of
what you are looking at.

You can't expect a young person to be a real world expert on oo design, ie:
been there, done that, now know how to do it again a bit better now. OO
methodology has'nt even been around that long. It's definetly evolving as is
the speed of computer hardware and how software can take advantage of that.
One does not learn to be a master programmer by being a master programmer.
One learns to be a master programmer by first being a junior programmer,
mid-level programmer, senior programmer, junior analyst, mid-level analyst,
senior analyst, junior business analyst, mid-level business analyst, senior
business analyst, ..., project leader, project manager, etc.

I personally don't really find a problem with the attitude of your posting.
It was interesting. I believe in throwing a bit of entertainment and
personality into our world of computer science. But don't put down people
who are trying to help others in what may appear to you to be in their own
limited way.
 
So, do you only read the csharp group? :>)

PS - nospam is an idiot. He occasionally trolls the groups with his
unifromed, ignorant anti-OOP blatherings.

Bob Lehmann
 
Makes you think about the difference between being ignorant and an
ignoramus.

I'm not sure why I only read the CSharp group. I never did VB. Did FoxPro
until a few years ago, before that was a mini/mainframe person. I like C#,
but am still learning it. I guess at some point my learning will get more
into the framework and aspnet side.
 
Hi Empire,

Well, the whole VB group is reading you loud and clear, over!
And all the others listed up there in the newsgroups box.

So, inadvertent or not, Welcome to the world outside csharp. ;-))

Regards,
Fergus
 
My job isn't going offshore... and heck, I have more work than I can shake a
stick at. You live in the richest country in the world and have
opportunities that many people can only dream of. If people many more
hurdles than you ever had to deal with can convince those paying you, to go
with them instead to the point it disrupts your career, that says a lot more
about you than it does about OOP.

You can't build anything worth selling without embracing objects... you are
insane.

Can you show us some examples of your ultra elite web sites or programs?
How about a press release from some of your stellar products? Or a Resume?

Since I have yet to see you post anything positive or productive, why don't
you and Bailo start a PhP newsgroup somewhere, you can even write it in one
tier with procedural code, and hell, use Comma Separated Text files for your
database.
 
Hello Fergus,

Are you calling DotNetJunkies.com web site a MOM and POP operations?
Don't have anything to say do you? If you do, why not say it to
DotNetJunkies.com? They are the one who's site is down for an extended
period of time.

What's a matter? Are you in complete denial?


...................
 
COMMENTS INLINE BELOW...............


Empire City said:
You make some interesting points but you seem a bit bitter. Did you know
that there are many excellent brands of decaffinated coffee on the market.
The site looks very nice to me.


Project management 101. The old time, quality, resources triangle. Subtract
from any item it and you will need to increase one of the others to produce
the same result.
Click to expand...

BLAH BLAH BLAH....
DotNetJunkies.com are supposed to be the EXPERTS. Plus you don't even have a
web site to even point to.

They probably could'nt afford it. I recently quoted someone $200,000 for a
project. They were shocked. Then I told them that was just for the design
and specification.
Click to expand...


$200k !!! ha ha ha... no wonder why you don't have a web site.....
I guess it would have take you 2 years to do as well right?


If written properly. It would seem to me that vast design changes would be
best off with a new design. Did you ever read a book on oo programming?
Click to expand...


DUHHHHHHH......
I guess you could have written it properly then? I don't see your web site,
but then again it takes you 2 years to do one anyway. So, I guess you spend
all your time reading books on OO programming, YET, just can't seem to find
the time to actually produce a web site.



I can predict with absolute 100% certainty that I'd always like my system to
be able to make me a cheeseburger.
able

Let's say a JP Morgan sees that if they had a nice system that was auditable
they could open a new credit derivitave market and could make 20 million a
day. I think they could afford a good design.
Click to expand...


PERHAPS, BUT you would take 2-3 years to implement it once you finished
reading your OOP book that you love to be brainwashed with.


more
features

Is that a trick question?


Totally incorrect. Let's just take a simple example of a customer
maintenance screen that you may want to add another field too. Good design
leads to flexibility and understandability wether it's oo design or
whatever. Poor design leads to less flexibility. In a way I have to agree
that the multi-tier design may be seen somewhat as a limitation of MS.
Specifically that you might need to take a logical layer and move it to a
physical layer on a different machine for performance reasons. Maybe a
talking point would be using a Sun/Oracle system instead. No design is
perfect because the world is not perfect (possibly with the exception of my
world, hopefully I'll get to go out rollerblading down to West Broadway
Soho, 41 degrees and sunny in the Big Apple).
Click to expand...


No design is PERFECT!!!! DUHHHHHH!!!!
So why do you OOP NITWITS try to design with the same UN-FLEXIBLE OOP n-TIER
architecture AGAIN AND AGAIN only to RE-WRITE the WHOLE thing from SCRATCH
AGAIN AND AGAIN.

OOP / n-TIER TALKS of FLEXIBILITY but NEVER ACHIEVES it in the REAL WORLD
because IT has NO IDEA where it should be flexible in the first place.

That's why YOU are always in RE=WRITE mode, just like DotNetJunkies.com are
in right now.

What good is the blueprint of a house if you decide you don't want a
basement anymore.
Click to expand...


YES, that right! What good is a blueprint or OBJECT MODEL if the foundation
changes? And THAT's exactly what happens in the REAL WORLD, the FOUNDATION
CHANGES ALL THE TIME.

Sounds like they are overusing Inheritance in a similar way people overuse
web services. Look at the PageBase module of the Duwamish sample for a good
way to use Inheritance.
Click to expand...


Duwamish is a complete MESS....OVER COMPLICATED solution for something SO
SIMPLE.
OUT

That seems rather obvious. You might want to figure out a bit of list
etiquette. The purpose of these lists is learning.
Click to expand...


YOU CAN'T LEARN if you CAN'T ADMIT YOUR MISTAKES.
THE OOP / n-TIER CULT needs to admit that OOP and N-TIER has SEVERE
LIMITATIONS and has a POOR TRACK RECORD in the REAL WORLD.


So should we feel sorry for dotnetnukes?


Yes, you are often stating facts. Does saying period make them more of a
fact.
Click to expand...



*PERIOD* helps the BRAINWASHED know where things begin and end as they got
their heads buried in the OOP books whose AUTHORS also don't have their OWN
WEB SITE, NOR built it from scratch and maintain it 100% themselves as they
are TOO busy at conferences speakiing or writing LITE EXAMPLE CODE for their
books that works here and there.

Can you propose a different way to go? I'm sure we would all be facinated to
see something. Don't confuse corporate, media and MS brainwashing towards
their particular products with solid scientific design benefits.


Are you saying that programmers in India don't use oo design?
Click to expand...


I am saying programmers in India do use OO design which produces the same
CRAPPY INFLEXIBLE software that you get in this country.
 
If you really want to LEARN something, TRY ACTUALLY DOING IT instead of
sticking your head in some book made by authors who they themselves don't
produce production code, NOR maintain their web site and see all the
problems. Tiny pieces of *example* code in a book is a way way different
then an entire enterprise application that YOU, YOURSELF, PERSONALLY have to
MAINTAIN.

There is a BIG difference in an OOP / n-TIER architect who sits around
telling other programmers what to do and creating his object model diagram
in Visio or Rational or whatever you want in like UML and USE CASES, AND the
ACTUAL PROGRAMMER who has to understand all that FAILED OOP crap from some
arrogant nitwit whose only accomplishment is their resume that is full of
HOLLOW technical articles or books and a bunch of 3 or 4 letter acronyms.

PERIOD.
 
Well, let's see. Do you frequently change databases to justify n-TIER?

NO.

What about the presentation TIER? Do you plan to make it accessible via a
PDA? IF so, just HOW many PEOPLE are going to sit and read an article on a
2 inch by 3 inch screen. That's about the size of a business card!!!

Let's take a LOOK at DEVBUZ.com. Nice site, still with asp. YET, why isn't
it ported to ASP.NET? It's not easy is it? Have you made some major changes
or added really new features like what happens in the *corporate* world?

You may have the business logic to purchase items in your web site; HOWEVER,
how many sales do you get through a PDA since YOUR BUSINESS LAYER allows you
to have a different presentation layer???????
Ask yourself if you OR anyone you know has actually bought something sole
though the use of PDA.

Have you had the need to use n-Tier???????????????????????????????????????

Why would you want to connect this to another database? Is that going to
bring in more users? Who is going to pay for this and just who is going to
have the time to do it in the first place? Of what overall benefit $$$ will
it help you by having TWO different databases of which n-Tier is SUPPOSED
good for?


See all of these TIERS, they don't seem to be used do they????? And if they
are of what benefit have they really been to you? What's the ROI on the
extra development time?


What about the Object Model? I don't seen anything that super sophisticated
in your site that really need it OR is actually being re-used signifcantly.

What good is the Tier model if the NEXT big thing is a totally new language
and METHDOLOGY anyway and you have to use InterOp to talk to it? You only
end up supporting TWO different CODE BASES if you don't port it over. If
you want a new feature, you hope it has nothing to do with that legacy
LAYER, but BECAUSE it's a LAYER if runs across the ENTIRE app, so now your
are STUCK OR you end up splitting it up, VERTICALLY. moving section by
section over...HMMMMMMM....sounds like what I have been saying OH so LONG
AGO.

The solution is K.I.S.S., NOT OOP or n-TIER.
 
I need to add some more......

MORE COMMENTS INLINE BELOW


William Ryan said:
Check out my company web site.... www.infoprogroup.com (or
https://inforporgroup.com/SecureFTP once again, done with OOP (Flash,
ASP.NET, Infragistics and Dart SecureFTP). I can show you two other sites
that I've built all by my little self, HIPPA compliant, SSL enabled, using
components like Infragistics tools (all OOP components) and Component
Click to expand...
one.




Nice and dandy, now what about performance? what about reliability?
Say if someone needs to come in later and add a new feature?

Do you have the SOURCE code to the Component One and Infragistics?

You are calling all of these OBJECTS, your code could be SLOWER. But what
if they have a new version of their products and you implement them. Just
because you can have different versions running side by side doesn't make
maintenance easier. Now you have TWO code bases again and NOW you have to
remember which is which. .....this means LESS RELIABILITY and MORE HASSLE...

BUT OF COURSE, you didn't build it from scratch and pretty much bought
someone else's product, so how would you even know anything about OOP or
n-TIER in the first place as you REALLY didn't do the coding. But if you
are recommending people to BUY other people's stuff that fine.

Performance, reliability, customization, maintenance are totally different
if you have to support the FULL code.


So what would you use...if not OOP? Glue your businesss logic into your UI?
Be specific about what you would do, or quit trashing the good work that
others do.

Just b/c dotnetjunkies had ONE problem, that's a failure of OOP? Hmm, it's
been up and running quite well for a long time. It's also a project that
the brilliant developers of that site did as a hobby. Where are your
Click to expand...
URL's?


*TWO POINTS*
(1) IF THESE DEVELOPERS were so BRILLIANT, why do they need a COMPLETE
RE-WRITE of their so-called HOBBY code? Shouldn't they have forseen this?
AH, BUT you are completely wrong in this respect. It has NEVER, EVER a
HOBBY project and it was serious from the beginning as evidenced by the
books that they want to self-promote from the very beginning.

(2) IF they are so brilliant, then it should have taken them very little
time to do it the right way with the OOP / n-Tier way.



K.I.S.S. has always worked. OOP has a 50/50 gamble at best
 
Sorry, I was ribbing you about the 3 posts with the same message - note the
smiley. No offense intended.

Bob Lehmann
 
So what is your alternative to OOP. Be Specific. Every other time I've
asked, you've come up with some platitude about simplicity.

So let me speak from experience. Check out www.devbuzz.com .(check out the
Forums on the CF for instance...I'm a moderator there and can speak to how
Derrick built it). One guy got that site up and running before ASP.NET was
even around...and he's built it with, you guessed it OOP. I didn't design
it but I actively work on it and support it, and without OOP it wouldn't be
worth the effort.!

Check out my company web site.... www.infoprogroup.com (or
https://inforporgroup.com/SecureFTP once again, done with OOP (Flash,
ASP.NET, Infragistics and Dart SecureFTP). I can show you two other sites
that I've built all by my little self, HIPPA compliant, SSL enabled, using
components like Infragistics tools (all OOP components) and Component one.

Check out www.csharpcorner.com and www.ipaq.net both built off of components
and OOP (based on the ASP.NET starter kits). While I had nothing to do with
building either of these...the source is published for free there and one
can take it and get a site up and running in under a few hours if you have
a SQL Server and know IIS at a basic level. OOP at its best.

So what would you use...if not OOP? Glue your businesss logic into your UI?
Be specific about what you would do, or quit trashing the good work that
others do.

Just b/c dotnetjunkies had ONE problem, that's a failure of OOP? Hmm, it's
been up and running quite well for a long time. It's also a project that
the brilliant developers of that site did as a hobby. Where are your URL's?
 
Maybe not comma delimited files....but let's look at the broken and crappy
Windows Registry.

Win.ini files were doing quite nicely. Now you got this huge and
UN-MAINTAINABLE registry that needs to be constantly backed up as it only
get bigger and more screwed up and your can't CLEAN it anyway.

You can't move your programs and these NEW programs from Microsoft had to
create the SPECIAL programs to more your settings around. BEFORE, it was a
simple COPY and PASTE COMMAND to switch drives or computers.

What does this mean? LOWER, MUCH LOWER REliability. Higher maintenance.
Single point of failure and ATTACK for viruses.

Look at all these WORKAROUNDS Microsoft had to do and STILL has to do for
it's VS.NET and other programs just to move your setting to another
computer.

All this pain and misery for a little used feature(Registry) of multiple
users on your machine WHICH could have be done in a better and far more
reliable way.


And GUESS what, VS.NET Whidbey is finally starting to realize this
SIMPLICITY! No extraneous files when you create a new project. and with
..NET it is COPY and PASTE simplicity when moving projects....WOW!!! HOW
REVOLUTIONARY!!!


K.I.S.S. is the architecture that has proven itself...not OOP / n-Tier which
has more FAR FAR more failures than successes. Oh, but of course, the
elitist OOP few has to blame the programmer for these failures as these
SO-CALLED BOOK AUTHORS have a BOOK that SAYS OOP is the WAY. I guess having
a BOOK is the SUPREME validation as opposed to a REAL WEB SITE...but of
course these BOOK AUTHORS have never, from scratch produced a full
production level web site anyway as they spend all their time selling and
writing books and tiny example code and snippets.
 
Hi Bill,

|| and hell, use Comma Separated Text files for your database.

ROFL.

Regards,
Fergus
 
Hi nospam,

|| TRY ACTUALLY DOING IT instead of sticking your
|| head in some book made by authors who they themselves
|| don't roduce production code

I presume, then, that you talk from no small amount of experience.
Let us see, please, your KISS website - the one that offers all the
features yet could be persuaded to offer that and more in the twinkle
of a nospam thought.

What's your website, nospam?
We are keen to bow down
before this altar.

Regards,
Fergus
 
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