AMD or Intel

  • Thread starter Thread starter J.Clarke
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J.Clarke

Any suggestion if I should choose AMD or Intel platform ? Does AMD
still have the VERY HOT issue ?

Neither AMD nor Intel make mass storage devices so this isn't really the
best place to get an answer to that question.

And I've seen AMD processors running at -40C. (yes, that is minus and
yes I mean "forty" and it doesn't matter if it's F or C at that
particular temperature) so there would not appear to be a "VERY HOT
issue", although there is sometimes an "inadequate cooling issue",
which, to get back on topic, also causes problems with mass storage
devices, which many people do not seem to realize need cooling.
 
Papa, not disagreeing with you here, Rita's post didn't show up on my
server, so I'm responding to her comments in this post.

If Intel processors are shovels then use an Opteron--no point in using a
shovel to dig a hole when a backhoe is the proper tool.

As for SCSI, perhaps Rita should check the reviews for the WD
Raptors--their performance matches or surpasses the 10K Cheetahs
comes close to the 15K Cheetahs. And that's for first generation
drives--the second generation with twice the linear density and tagged
command queuing should be considerably more capable.

I hate to say it, but with LSI Logic (aka AMI and Mylex) producing
SATA RAID controllers with all the features of their SCSI RAID
controllers and with enterprise-grade SATA drives available, SCSI's days
may be numbered.
 
Any suggestion if I should choose AMD or Intel platform ? Does AMD still
have the VERY HOT issue ?
 
Rita, here are some points for you to think about (from an article in
Epinion.com):

Intel versus AMD, who are you betting on?

The Bottom Line With good points from all sides, the decision depends
on the application.

When working on a computer, all of what you are doing is processed by
the CPU (central processing unit), the brain of the computer if you
will. Like brains, computers aren't all of equal power. Some are the
equivalent to a rat brain, and some to Einstein. The trick is to find
that sweat spot between value and performance, that's when you've
found the perfect processor for you! But, before you decide how much
power you want to jam in that little chip, you're going to want to
decide on the type. This my friend, is where we enter a feud that has
lasted longer than life itself(well, at least for people that are
younger than it!), the Intel versus AMD feud.

From the early 80's when the company Intel was founded, (by the way,
Intel isn't derived from the word intelligence, it's a mix between the
words integrated electronics) Intel has taken off and dominated the
home computer market. It also took over the laptop processor market,
and just recently with the introduction of there first 64 bit
processor, very might well take over the server and workstation market
(previously occupied by Sun's UltraSparc and Compaq's Alpha). But, all
along the road to fame Intel has run into some competition. In the
beginning, from IBM (the creator of the desktop), then Cyrix (which is
almost totally wiped out),

Minor nit, but Cyrix belongs to Via now and it is alive and well and
carving out a nice little niche in embedded and special use systems
where it's low power consumption and low heat production outweigh it's
low performance.
and most recently AMD. You might think that
AMD will have the same fate as the rest, but the fact is that AMD is
putting up a huge fight and is actually taking away Intel's market
share in almost all markets.

Now that I've given Intel's background, AMD deserves some of the
spotlight. AMD (Advanced Micro Devices) doesn't have such a long and
prestigious history, but has done some pretty amazing things. No one
knew about AMD before they introduced there first hit product, the AMD
K6-2. It was designed to compete against the Pentium Pro, Pentium II,
and earlier Pentium III's. They then introduced the AMD K6-III, which
wasn't as popular and didn't stick around long due to the introduction
of the AMD Athlon and Duron processors. The Duron was designed to
compete against the Celeron, it was designed as a consumer budget
model. The Athlon was more advanced and was designed to compete
against the Pentium III. They then redid the Athlon and came out with
a Socket model (uses a small chip with pins on the bottom compared to
the slot which was about the size of a graphing calculator and went in
thin side down). This was designed to compete against the later
Pentium III models and the Pentium 4.

Now that you know some background information on the two companies,
it's time to start the debate between the Intel processors and the AMD
processors. The first fight is between the two consumer budget chips
from both models, the Celeron from Intel and the Duron from AMD. The
next fight is the desktop round between the Pentium III and Pentium 4
from Intel and the Athlon from AMD. The next is the high-end
workstation and server markets, in which the Itanium from Intel and
the SMP version of the Athlon from AMD. The last battle is for the
notebook market. This includes the Pentium III with SpeedStep
technology from Intel and the Athlon 4 from AMD.

Round One, Consumer Budget Processors

This fight is between the two entry level processors, Intel's Celeron
and AMD's Duron. Both of the processors don't perform as well as there
desktop counterparts, especially the Celeron. The Celeron is about 200
megahertz slower than the Duron or AMD equivalent, although the
technical clock speed may be the same. In this one, the Duron WINS
HANDS DOWN. It's cheaper, faster, and fits in the Athlon socket, so if
you built a system designed for a Duron you could easily upgrade to an
Athlon, no converters or change of motherboard required!

Round Two, Desktop Processors

This is really where Intel and AMD fight because here energy is not an
issue and the speeds aren't limited by cooling or space. The Intel
Pentium III processor goes from 400 megahertz to 1 gigahertz.

Another minor nit--1.4 GHz PIIIs are readily available.
It
performs similar to the Pentium 4,

Actually, at the same clock speed the PIII is faster--not my opinion,
somewhere on the Intel site there is a white paper about this--they
traded operations per cycle for higher clock speed in the P4.
but is cheaper(although not as
cheap as the high end Athlon's).

The lowest price I can find on a 1.4 GHz PIII is $195. The lowest price
I can find on an Athlon 3200+ (a "high end Athlon") is about 315. So
the PIII is most assuredly cheaper than the high end Athlons, but
it's a good deal more expensive than the midrange Athlons.
The Athlon is meant to compete on all
fronts. It goes from 550 megahertz to 1.67 gigahertz (and climbing).

The 3200+ normally runs 2.16 GHz.
It usually performs at about the same speed as an Intel processor 400
megahertz ahead (for example, a 1.4 GH-z Athlon will beet out a 1.8
GH-z Pentium 4). They are also really cheap, with the 1.4 GH-z
processor going for $100.

Armed robber--you should be getting a 2600+ for that price. The 1600+,
which is the current 1.4 GHz part, goes for under $60.
The last processor is the Pentium 4. This is
aimed at the higher level consumer, but when sold with a desktop isn't
much more expensive. Overall, I'd say GO FOR THE ATHLON BECAUSE IT"S
CHEAPER, FASTER, AND DOESN'T USE RAMBUS RAM (the P4 only uses Rambus
RAM,

Where the Hell have _you_ been for the last two years or so. It has
been a long time since the P4 needed Rambus. The current Intel chipsets
do not support Rambus, but they do support DDR.
the Athlon can use SDRAM or DDR RAM) unless you're a gamer, then
I'd say go for an Intel Pentium 4 based system at 1.5 GH-z.

Why would you go for such a slow, antiquated system?
Round Three, High-end Workstations and Servers

For a market where neither Intel nor AMD has ever been too successful,
there is an awful lot of competition. AMD competes with it's SMP based
systems(Symmetrical Multi-Processor, more than one processor) and
Intel competes with its 64 bit Itanium processor.

Intel's 64 bit Itanium processor has never been particularly
competitive--it was late out the door at too low a clock speed and the
32-bit machines kicked its butt--the second generation Itanium may be
doing better. And AMD competes in that market with _their_ 64-bit
processors which run like the hammers of Hell (no pun intended).
The first half of
the fight is centered around high-end workstations. These are usually
involved with CAD and CAM programs which just suck up megahertz like
there's no tomorrow. ON THIS FRONT, THE SMP ATHLON SYSTEMS WIN OUT.
They are much cheaper than the Itanium chips and don't need a 64 bit
operating system to perform to their full potential. The server market
is different. It doesn't really have much activity directly onto it,
but must serve up a lot of information to a large number of clients.
THIS FIGHT IS WON BY THE INTEL ITANIUM.

So how many Itanium-based machines have actually been sold and put into
service? Last time I checked I could get one on ebay for less than a
decent Athlon-based gaming rig.
People are willing to pay more
for speed when dealing with web servers, and the operating system
really isn't that important because only the clients are going to
interact with it and they won't need to navigate around the OS and
there aren't any compatibility issues like there are with programs
like AutoCAD.

Round Four, Mobile Processors

In one corner, weighing in at up to 1.1 Gigahertz, the Intel Pentium
III with SpeedStep. In the other corner, the latest mobile processor
from AMD, weighing in at up to 1 Gigahertz, the AMD Athlon 4! Alright,
first things first, what sets these chips apart from there desktop
counterparts. The SpeedStep technology that Intel talks about in the
naming scheme is why it's a mobile processor. SpeedStep enabled chips
are designed to save power by running at one speed when plugged in and
another when relying on battery power. For example, in my Dell
Inspiron 8000 with an Intel Pentium III 900 MH-z SpeedStep enabled
processor runs at 900 megahertz when plugged in and 750 when relying
on batter power. This can be disabled though, at the BIOS screen. The
Athlon 4 (note that the 4 is just meant to compete with the Pentium 4,
it's basically the same as the normal Athlon) is just basically an
energy saver. At the end of the match, I'D HAVE TO SAY THAT THE AMD
ATHLON 4 PROCESSOR WOULD WIN because it doesn't slow down the
processor and is much cheaper (as are most AMD products).

So in which corner is the Intel Centrino?
End of first article

Which was out of date a couple of years ago.
Also, a more recent article on the subject, dated September 23, 2003
by DocMemory, discusses the new 64-bit CPU technology:

Advanced Micro Devices Inc. Tuesday will officially launch its Athlon
64 processor, a PC version of its 64-bit server processing technology
which promises high performance graphics and high end processing at
the desktop and notebook level, backwards compatible with 32 bit
applications and operating systems.

The launch sends a warning shot across the bow of the mighty Intel
supertanker.

The new entry by AMD beats rival Intel to the punch. Semiconductor
giant Intel's CTO Patrick Gelsinger last week at the Intel Developers
Forum told reporters that 64-bit processing would not be needed at the
PC level for several more years. According to Intel officials, PC
operating systems and applications aren't yet ready for the
technology.

"This launch will do a lot to boost AMD versus Intel," said Kevin
Krewell, senior analyst at In-Stat/MDR. "It differentiates AMD
products, and it will be a high performing product, which could
improve AMD's position in the market."

Microsoft has made a 64-bit Windows beta available earlier this year
and is expected to announce general availability of the OS at the AMD
launch Tuesday or soon after. In addition, several Linux operating
systems are available to exploit 64-bit hardware. On the applications
side, AMD demonstrated Epic Games Unreal Tournament 2003 for 64 bits
at Comdex, and that product is currently available.

PC gamers and enthusiasts, or "prosumers," will be a big market for
AMD Althon 64, said John Crank, product manager for the 64-bit desktop
side at AMD. AMD expects platforms that incorporate the chip to be
initially embraced by the PC gaming community and then by consumers
who are looking for high end desktop processing to support their
digital video and still image editing applications.

In a pre-emptive strike , last week at the Intel Developers Forum
Intel announced its own first entry aimed directly at gamers --
Pentium 4 Processor with HT Technology Extreme Edition 3.2GHz, which
offers an additional 2Mbytes of cache.

"Pentium 4 Extreme Edition, a server processor in desktop clothes, is
Intel's short term response to Althon64," said Krewell. "The real
Intel response is Prescott, the 90nm processor expected to ship for
revenue this quarter, but which may not launch until Q1 2004."

In addition to the 64-bit capabilities, Althon 64 will also
incorporate the memory controller portion of the north bridge onto the
same die as the CPU. AMD has said this shift in architecture will
further improve the performance of its processor by reducing latency.
But that innovation by itself will not sell processors as much as the
fact that it is a design that is different than that offered by Intel.

"Integrating the memory controller represents a different approach to
system design," said Shane Rau, senior analyst at IDC. "In this day
and age, differentiating is probably a good thing because you can do
something better than your competitor. Integrating the memory
controller could be a good way to improve overall main memory
performance."

Processor start-up Transmeta incorporates the entire north bridge
function on the processor, and will be launching its next generation
CPU, Efficeon, in mid-October.

"The alternative architecture offered by AMD and Transmeta gives
system vendors and consumers choice and that is good," said Krewell. "
It is important for Intel competitors to offer differentiated
products."

AMD launched its 64-bit server chip, Opteron, in April. Intel's 64-bit
server chip, Itanium, first hit the market two years ago.

End of second article

Anyway, Rita, I can hardly agree with your conclusion that AMD CPUs
are unreliable. I will concede that for servers, the Itanium is
probably the best bet

Has it been developed to the point that it can get out of its own way
yet, and why would it be a better choice than the Opteron?
 
Any suggestion if I should choose AMD or Intel platform ? Does AMD still
have the VERY HOT issue ?



Why, Intel, of course. There is no sense in using a teaspoon to dig a hole
when a shovel is the proper tool. And, yes, after selecting the proper
Intel processor to do the intended task you may want to consider going with
an all SCSI only system. Again, there is no sense in using improper tools.



Rita
 
Sorry, Rita, but I have to disagree because AMD CPUs have been installed in
my home-built systems for several years now - with no problems, no
performance hits, no overheating (of course, fan/heatsink combos should be
used), and for at least half the price of the Intels.

I see you are using your real email address in your newsgroup posts. That
really exposes you to spam attacks. I suggest that you create a fake one.
 
Any suggestion if I should choose AMD or Intel platform ?

I prefer Intel for the quieter result myself.
Does AMD still have the VERY HOT issue ?

Its not as bad as it once was, but still worse than the
Intels. And the boxed fans are rather more noisy and
you void the warranty if you replace the boxed fan.
 
Sorry, Rita, but I have to disagree because AMD CPUs have been installed in
my home-built systems for several years now - with no problems, no
performance hits, no overheating (of course, fan/heatsink combos should be
used), and for at least half the price of the Intels.



Sure, I can agree with you that you will find AMD in many home-built systems
and they are cheaper than Intel. Now, when you get into serious systems
that are being used as servers, high-end workstations, and other mission
critical applications you will almost never see an AMD processor. I do
realize that AMD processors are a big hit with the over-clocking crowd and
other novelty type PC users, but nothing of real serious nature.

I see you are using your real email address in your newsgroup posts. That
really exposes you to spam attacks. I suggest that you create a fake one.



Thanks for the suggestion; I'll take you up on your recommendation.



Rita
 
Papa, not disagreeing with you here, Rita's post didn't show up on my
server, so I'm responding to her comments in this post.

If Intel processors are shovels then use an Opteron--no point in using a
shovel to dig a hole when a backhoe is the proper tool.



I'll stick with my old trusty tried and true shovel instead of using a
backhoe with a busted hydraulic pump to make futile attempts at digging the
same hole. But, then again, you're back to your old self, trying to compare
apples to oranges when you're futilely attempting to compare a 64-Bit
Opteron to a 32-Bit Intel. And I don't even think that the Opteron even
exceeds 32-bit Intel in most real world applications? If you really want to
make a fair and accurate comparison why did you neglect to mention Intel's
64-Bit Itanium? Now, that's apples to apples and AMD is in no way even
nearing the performance or functionality of the old but not forgotten
Itanium.

As for SCSI, perhaps Rita should check the reviews for the WD
Raptors--their performance matches or surpasses the 10K Cheetahs
comes close to the 15K Cheetahs. And that's for first generation
drives--the second generation with twice the linear density and tagged
command queuing should be considerably more capable.

Again, "nearing" is not the same as exceeding. In fairness, I really wish
you to be right since the whole computing community will benefit. I just
haven't seen it happen as of yet with SATA nearing SCSI. Then if we freeze
SCSI advancements for a while SATA *may* catch up.

I hate to say it, but with LSI Logic (aka AMI and Mylex) producing
SATA RAID controllers with all the features of their SCSI RAID
controllers and with enterprise-grade SATA drives available, SCSI's days
may be numbered.



Again I really hope you are right. I'd love to see LSI pull this one off.
Until that day, SCSI is where it's at.





Rita
 
Rita, sorry, but you are simply misinformed.

AMD CPUs are not "found" in home-built systems, we PUT them there, in order
to obtain high-end performance and reliability WITHOUT paying the higher
Intel cost. Plain and simple. Those who are in the know about this have
continued to use AMD without any regrets and without any penalties.

However, continue buying your pre-assembled systems with Intel installed.
You will get good performance, and, at the same time, make the retailers and
Intel very happy.

By the way, I see that you are still using your real email address. It's
quite easy to create a fake one. I wouldn't delay.
 
Rita, sorry, but you are simply misinformed.



Not really, it all depends on which market your customer base is in. In the
corporate world, AMD has struggled for the past 20+ years to even crawl to
get recognized, which it failed miserably. AMD simple cannot produce a
product that is functional and reliable in that environment. Do a Google
search on Intel vs. AMD and you will find this out for yourself.



With the introduction of AMD's Opteron the corporate world is starting to
take a second look at AMD. IBM is seriously looking and backing AMD in this
venture. And I hope AMD pulls it off and give Intel some serious
completion. I'm rooting for AMD on this since we will all benefit.


AMD CPUs are not "found" in home-built systems, we PUT them there, in order
to obtain high-end performance and reliability WITHOUT paying the higher
Intel cost. Plain and simple. Those who are in the know about this have
continued to use AMD without any regrets and without any penalties.



Again, it's what one considers "high-end performance" for their needs. If I
were catering to gamers and overclockers than I would be pushing AMD on
them. Since most of my clientele are corporate in nature they have no need
for AMD.

However, continue buying your pre-assembled systems with Intel installed.
You will get good performance, and, at the same time, make the retailers and
Intel very happy.



I offer what is needed for the customer's application. If it isn't
available pre-assembled they will be getting a system built using Intel
processors mounted on Supermicro motherboards. I'm not in business to make
the retailers happy; I'm in it to make money. And AMD doesn't cover the
overhead.



Rita
 
Rita, here are some points for you to think about (from an article in
Epinion.com):

Intel versus AMD, who are you betting on?

The Bottom Line With good points from all sides, the decision depends on the
application.

When working on a computer, all of what you are doing is processed by the
CPU (central processing unit), the brain of the computer if you will. Like
brains, computers aren't all of equal power. Some are the equivalent to a
rat brain, and some to Einstein. The trick is to find that sweat spot
between value and performance, that's when you've found the perfect
processor for you! But, before you decide how much power you want to jam in
that little chip, you're going to want to decide on the type. This my
friend, is where we enter a feud that has lasted longer than life itself
(well, at least for people that are younger than it!), the Intel versus AMD
feud.

From the early 80's when the company Intel was founded, (by the way, Intel
isn't derived from the word intelligence, it's a mix between the words
integrated electronics) Intel has taken off and dominated the home computer
market. It also took over the laptop processor market, and just recently
with the introduction of there first 64 bit processor, very might well take
over the server and workstation market (previously occupied by Sun's
UltraSparc and Compaq's Alpha). But, all along the road to fame Intel has
run into some competition. In the beginning, from IBM (the creator of the
desktop), then Cyrix (which is almost totally wiped out), and most recently
AMD. You might think that AMD will have the same fate as the rest, but the
fact is that AMD is putting up a huge fight and is actually taking away
Intel's market share in almost all markets.

Now that I've given Intel's background, AMD deserves some of the spotlight.
AMD (Advanced Micro Devices) doesn't have such a long and prestigious
history, but has done some pretty amazing things. No one knew about AMD
before they introduced there first hit product, the AMD K6-2. It was
designed to compete against the Pentium Pro, Pentium II, and earlier Pentium
III's. They then introduced the AMD K6-III, which wasn't as popular and didn
't stick around long due to the introduction of the AMD Athlon and Duron
processors. The Duron was designed to compete against the Celeron, it was
designed as a consumer budget model. The Athlon was more advanced and was
designed to compete against the Pentium III. They then redid the Athlon and
came out with a Socket model (uses a small chip with pins on the bottom
compared to the slot which was about the size of a graphing calculator and
went in thin side down). This was designed to compete against the later
Pentium III models and the Pentium 4.

Now that you know some background information on the two companies, it's
time to start the debate between the Intel processors and the AMD
processors. The first fight is between the two consumer budget chips from
both models, the Celeron from Intel and the Duron from AMD. The next fight
is the desktop round between the Pentium III and Pentium 4 from Intel and
the Athlon from AMD. The next is the high-end workstation and server
markets, in which the Itanium from Intel and the SMP version of the Athlon
from AMD. The last battle is for the notebook market. This includes the
Pentium III with SpeedStep technology from Intel and the Athlon 4 from AMD.

Round One, Consumer Budget Processors

This fight is between the two entry level processors, Intel's Celeron and
AMD's Duron. Both of the processors don't perform as well as there desktop
counterparts, especially the Celeron. The Celeron is about 200 megahertz
slower than the Duron or AMD equivalent, although the technical clock speed
may be the same. In this one, the Duron WINS HANDS DOWN. It's cheaper,
faster, and fits in the Athlon socket, so if you built a system designed for
a Duron you could easily upgrade to an Athlon, no converters or change of
motherboard required!

Round Two, Desktop Processors

This is really where Intel and AMD fight because here energy is not an issue
and the speeds aren't limited by cooling or space. The Intel Pentium III
processor goes from 400 megahertz to 1 gigahertz. It performs similar to the
Pentium 4, but is cheaper (although not as cheap as the high end Athlon's).
The Athlon is meant to compete on all fronts. It goes from 550 megahertz to
1.67 gigahertz (and climbing). It usually performs at about the same speed
as an Intel processor 400 megahertz ahead (for example, a 1.4 GH-z Athlon
will beet out a 1.8 GH-z Pentium 4). They are also really cheap, with the
1.4 GH-z processor going for $100. The last processor is the Pentium 4. This
is aimed at the higher level consumer, but when sold with a desktop isn't
much more expensive. Overall, I'd say GO FOR THE ATHLON BECAUSE IT"S
CHEAPER, FASTER, AND DOESN'T USE RAMBUS RAM (the P4 only uses Rambus RAM,
the Athlon can use SDRAM or DDR RAM) unless you're a gamer, then I'd say go
for an Intel Pentium 4 based system at 1.5 GH-z.

Round Three, High-end Workstations and Servers

For a market where neither Intel nor AMD has ever been too successful, there
is an awful lot of competition. AMD competes with it's SMP based systems
(Symmetrical Multi-Processor, more than one processor) and Intel competes
with its 64 bit Itanium processor. The first half of the fight is centered
around high-end workstations. These are usually involved with CAD and CAM
programs which just suck up megahertz like there's no tomorrow. ON THIS
FRONT, THE SMP ATHLON SYSTEMS WIN OUT. They are much cheaper than the
Itanium chips and don't need a 64 bit operating system to perform to their
full potential. The server market is different. It doesn't really have much
activity directly onto it, but must serve up a lot of information to a large
number of clients. THIS FIGHT IS WON BY THE INTEL ITANIUM. People are
willing to pay more for speed when dealing with web servers, and the
operating system really isn't that important because only the clients are
going to interact with it and they won't need to navigate around the OS and
there aren't any compatibility issues like there are with programs like
AutoCAD.

Round Four, Mobile Processors

In one corner, weighing in at up to 1.1 Gigahertz, the Intel Pentium III
with SpeedStep. In the other corner, the latest mobile processor from AMD,
weighing in at up to 1 Gigahertz, the AMD Athlon 4! Alright, first things
first, what sets these chips apart from there desktop counterparts. The
SpeedStep technology that Intel talks about in the naming scheme is why it's
a mobile processor. SpeedStep enabled chips are designed to save power by
running at one speed when plugged in and another when relying on battery
power. For example, in my Dell Inspiron 8000 with an Intel Pentium III 900
MH-z SpeedStep enabled processor runs at 900 megahertz when plugged in and
750 when relying on batter power. This can be disabled though, at the BIOS
screen. The Athlon 4 (note that the 4 is just meant to compete with the
Pentium 4, it's basically the same as the normal Athlon) is just basically
an energy saver. At the end of the match, I'D HAVE TO SAY THAT THE AMD
ATHLON 4 PROCESSOR WOULD WIN because it doesn't slow down the processor and
is much cheaper (as are most AMD products).

End of first article

Also, a more recent article on the subject, dated September 23, 2003 by
DocMemory, discusses the new 64-bit CPU technology:

Advanced Micro Devices Inc. Tuesday will officially launch its Athlon 64
processor, a PC version of its 64-bit server processing technology which
promises high performance graphics and high end processing at the desktop
and notebook level, backwards compatible with 32 bit applications and
operating systems.

The launch sends a warning shot across the bow of the mighty Intel
supertanker.

The new entry by AMD beats rival Intel to the punch. Semiconductor giant
Intel's CTO Patrick Gelsinger last week at the Intel Developers Forum told
reporters that 64-bit processing would not be needed at the PC level for
several more years. According to Intel officials, PC operating systems and
applications aren't yet ready for the technology.

"This launch will do a lot to boost AMD versus Intel," said Kevin Krewell,
senior analyst at In-Stat/MDR. "It differentiates AMD products, and it will
be a high performing product, which could improve AMD's position in the
market."

Microsoft has made a 64-bit Windows beta available earlier this year and is
expected to announce general availability of the OS at the AMD launch
Tuesday or soon after. In addition, several Linux operating systems are
available to exploit 64-bit hardware. On the applications side, AMD
demonstrated Epic Games Unreal Tournament 2003 for 64 bits at Comdex, and
that product is currently available.

PC gamers and enthusiasts, or "prosumers," will be a big market for AMD
Althon 64, said John Crank, product manager for the 64-bit desktop side at
AMD. AMD expects platforms that incorporate the chip to be initially
embraced by the PC gaming community and then by consumers who are looking
for high end desktop processing to support their digital video and still
image editing applications.

In a pre-emptive strike , last week at the Intel Developers Forum Intel
announced its own first entry aimed directly at gamers -- Pentium 4
Processor with HT Technology Extreme Edition 3.2GHz, which offers an
additional 2Mbytes of cache.

"Pentium 4 Extreme Edition, a server processor in desktop clothes, is
Intel's short term response to Althon64," said Krewell. "The real Intel
response is Prescott, the 90nm processor expected to ship for revenue this
quarter, but which may not launch until Q1 2004."

In addition to the 64-bit capabilities, Althon 64 will also incorporate the
memory controller portion of the north bridge onto the same die as the CPU.
AMD has said this shift in architecture will further improve the performance
of its processor by reducing latency. But that innovation by itself will not
sell processors as much as the fact that it is a design that is different
than that offered by Intel.

"Integrating the memory controller represents a different approach to system
design," said Shane Rau, senior analyst at IDC. "In this day and age,
differentiating is probably a good thing because you can do something better
than your competitor. Integrating the memory controller could be a good way
to improve overall main memory performance."

Processor start-up Transmeta incorporates the entire north bridge function
on the processor, and will be launching its next generation CPU, Efficeon,
in mid-October.

"The alternative architecture offered by AMD and Transmeta gives system
vendors and consumers choice and that is good," said Krewell. " It is
important for Intel competitors to offer differentiated products."

AMD launched its 64-bit server chip, Opteron, in April. Intel's 64-bit
server chip, Itanium, first hit the market two years ago.

End of second article

Anyway, Rita, I can hardly agree with your conclusion that AMD CPUs are
unreliable. I will concede that for servers, the Itanium is probably the
best bet - barring any differing conclusions from the CPUs coming out of
newer technology. However, for all other uses, AMD is the best choice from a
performance, reliability, and cost point of view.

Regards.
 
Round One, Consumer Budget Processors
This fight is between the two entry level processors, Intel's Celeron and
AMD's Duron. Both of the processors don't perform as well as there
desktop counterparts, especially the Celeron. The Celeron is about 200
megahertz slower than the Duron or AMD equivalent, although the technical
clock speed may be the same. In this one, the Duron WINS HANDS DOWN.

Mindlessly superficial.
It's cheaper, faster, and fits in the Athlon socket, so if you built
a system designed for a Duron you could easily upgrade to an
Athlon, no converters or change of motherboard required!

Just as true of the celeron most of the time.
Round Two, Desktop Processors
This is really where Intel and AMD fight because here energy is not an issue
and the speeds aren't limited by cooling or space. The Intel Pentium III
processor goes from 400 megahertz to 1 gigahertz. It performs similar to the
Pentium 4, but is cheaper (although not as cheap as the high end Athlon's).
The Athlon is meant to compete on all fronts. It goes from 550 megahertz to
1.67 gigahertz (and climbing). It usually performs at about the same speed
as an Intel processor 400 megahertz ahead (for example, a 1.4 GH-z Athlon
will beet out a 1.8 GH-z Pentium 4). They are also really cheap, with the
1.4 GH-z processor going for $100. The last processor is the Pentium 4.
This is aimed at the higher level consumer, but when sold with a desktop
isn't much more expensive. Overall, I'd say GO FOR THE ATHLON
BECAUSE IT"S CHEAPER, FASTER, AND DOESN'T USE RAMBUS RAM
(the P4 only uses Rambus RAM, the Athlon can use SDRAM or DDR RAM)

Hopelessly out of date.
unless you're a gamer, then I'd say go for an
Intel Pentium 4 based system at 1.5 GH-z.

Even more mindlessly superficial.
Round Three, High-end Workstations and Servers
For a market where neither Intel nor AMD has ever been too
successful, there is an awful lot of competition. AMD competes
with it's SMP based systems (Symmetrical Multi-Processor,
more than one processor) and Intel competes with its 64 bit
Itanium processor. The first half of the fight is centered around
high-end workstations. These are usually involved with CAD and
CAM programs which just suck up megahertz like there's no
tomorrow. ON THIS FRONT, THE SMP ATHLON SYSTEMS WIN OUT.

Even more mindlessly superficial.
They are much cheaper than the Itanium chips and don't need
a 64 bit operating system to perform to their full potential. The
server market is different. It doesn't really have much activity
directly onto it, but must serve up a lot of information to a large
number of clients. THIS FIGHT IS WON BY THE INTEL ITANIUM.
People are willing to pay more for speed when dealing with web
servers, and the operating system really isn't that important because
only the clients are going to interact with it and they won't need
to navigate around the OS and there aren't any compatibility
issues like there are with programs like AutoCAD.
Round Four, Mobile Processors
In one corner, weighing in at up to 1.1 Gigahertz, the Intel Pentium III
with SpeedStep. In the other corner, the latest mobile processor from
AMD, weighing in at up to 1 Gigahertz, the AMD Athlon 4!

He'll go blind any minute.
Alright, first things first, what sets these chips apart from there
desktop counterparts. The SpeedStep technology that Intel talks
about in the naming scheme is why it's a mobile processor.
SpeedStep enabled chips are designed to save power by running
at one speed when plugged in and another when relying on battery
power. For example, in my Dell Inspiron 8000 with an Intel Pentium
III 900 MH-z SpeedStep enabled processor runs at 900 megahertz
when plugged in and 750 when relying on batter power. This can be
disabled though, at the BIOS screen. The Athlon 4 (note that the 4
is just meant to compete with the Pentium 4, it's basically the same
as the normal Athlon) is just basically an energy saver. At the end
of the match, I'D HAVE TO SAY THAT THE AMD ATHLON 4
PROCESSOR WOULD WIN because it doesn't slow down the
processor and is much cheaper (as are most AMD products).

More mindless superficiality.

Reams of mindless crap flushed where it belongs.
 
Anyway, Rita, I can hardly agree with your conclusion that AMD CPUs are
unreliable. I will concede that for servers, the Itanium is probably the
best bet - barring any differing conclusions from the CPUs coming out of
newer technology. However, for all other uses, AMD is the best choice from a
performance, reliability, and cost point of view.



You're totally missing the point, if consumers in the commercial market
don't want AMD because they are proven unreliable and poor performers for
the last 20+ years, myself or anyone else isn't going to blow smoke up their
ass when we value their repeat business. Again, it all depends on your
main client base. If I were catering to gamers and overclockers that feel
that the cool blue neon light in their case gives them a few Ghz advantage
of performance then I can agree with you. I can't concede when the customer
doesn't to waste their money on biased benchmarks instead of proven
performance. Any customer willing to shell out $10,000+ for a server
solution isn't even going to consider AMD. Sorry, it's a fact of life.
Now, with the introduction of the new AMD Opteron that old stigma may
disappear. The jury is still out on this one.



Rita
 
J.Clarke said:
As for SCSI, perhaps Rita should check the reviews for the WD
Raptors--their performance matches or surpasses the 10K Cheetahs
comes close to the 15K Cheetahs. And that's for first generation
drives--the second generation with twice the linear density and tagged
command queuing should be considerably more capable.
SCSI 10K drives have twice the performance of Raptors in server benchmarks.
The second generation have the same GB/platter as the first. Unless someone
makes a sATA2 controller command queuing is of no use.
I hate to say it, but with LSI Logic (aka AMI and Mylex) producing
SATA RAID controllers with all the features of their SCSI RAID
controllers and with enterprise-grade SATA drives available, SCSI's days
may be numbered.
There are two enterprise sATA drives, but dozens of SCSI drives. I doubt
anyone else but WD will produce enterprise sATA. Their drives are only 30%
cheaper, and good RAID costs lots whether it's SCSI or sATA.
 
Duh! Not a clue, and he can't see the entire thread.

Never assume that anybody on USENET can see _any_ of the thread except
the message you are posting. USENET has no central server, it is a
distributed system and as such there are no guarantees of message
delivery, let alone delivery times.
 
Rita_A_Berkowitz said:
Not really,

Yes really. AMD has been giving Intel a run for their money for
several years. If memory serves AMD was first to release a 1GHz
processor. AMD Athlons have been beating Pentium X'x hands down
comparing clock cycle to clock cycle and $ to $. AMD Dual Processor
platforms have caught the eye of the HPC market and brought great
performance/value to workstation users willing to make the plunge.
Most stability problems are NOT the result of the processor but
instead either the 3rd party chipset or improper building. If a
builder follows AMD specs and uses quality components the machine will
be rock solid and really shouldn't be that much louder, hotter, or
less energy efficient than a comparable Intel system. The main
deficiencies I have encountered are that AMD server boards don't
usually come with the same quality of remote management features and
go through less validation.

That being said unless you are comparing an AthlonMP platform to a
dual Xeon the price differential is usually not all that significant
between Intel or AMD esp when you start factoring in the time invested
in double checking motherboard & chipset issues/pitfalls and you don't
cut corners on parts.
 
I couldn't agree more, and that is why I don't use it. Leave USENET to
the newbies.

That statement, no offense intended, is just plain bizarre.

What do you believe USENET to be and via what service do you believe
that you are receiving this message, if you receive it? And what leads
you to believe that USENET, which predates the Internet by several
years, is for "newbies"?
 
Papa said:
Rita, here are some points for you to think about (from an article in
Epinion.com):

Intel versus AMD, who are you betting on?

<massive snip>

Come on please, this is *hardware.storage*, can you take it to a group
where it's on topic?
 
Well, for the last several years I have used Outlook Express as my
email program and as my newsgroup newsreader. I have NEVER used those
lousy web interfaces, such as the CDO one. All they do is create
confusion.

My newsgroup servers are msnews.Microsoft.com and
news.west.earthlink.net.

What do you use?

OK, first some background--USENET is a very, very old system, older than
the Internet. It is not a Web interface, although there are services
that provide USENET access via a Web interface. It is a network of
servers communicating using the NNTP (Network News Transport
Protocol)--msnews.Microsoft.com and news.west.earthlink.net are two
servers that form part of USENET, as does news.newsguy.com, and as do
hundreds if not thousands of other servers. In the extant case
your post went from"newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net"
to "stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net" and from there
to "newsfeed.earthlink.net" (three separate servers it went through just
to get out of Earthlink) and from there to "elnk-nf2-pas", thence
to "newshub.sdsu.edu", then "tethys.csu.net",
then "lotsanews.com"(note--went through two separate universities, then
a commercial service) before finally arriving at "extra.newsguy.com"
from which I retrieved it with Sylpheed-Claws via Hamster which I run on
my own server. Each of those servers is part of USENET. If any one of
them happened to die at the wrong moment or if the administrator of any
of them chose for whatever reason to put a rule in
place that blocked your post then your post might never have arrived
here.

To see this same kind of information in Outlook Express select the
message then "Alt-Enter" and then pick the "Details" tab and the list of
servers the post has passed through will be in the "Path" line--my post
probably followed a quite different path back to you, and if you check
the headers on other posts you'll find that it's rare that two posts go
through the same set of servers.

<http://livinginternet.com/u/um_rfc.htm> has links to the technical
documents that define USENET--the "RFC"s are the official defining
documents of the Internet.

Now, with regard to quoting, the following is an excerpt from RFC 1855,
<http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html> "Netiquette Guidelines": "If
you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you summarize
the original at the top of the message, or include just enough text of
the original to give a context. This will make sure readers understand
when they start to read your response. Since NetNews, especially, is
proliferated by distributing the postings from one host to another, it
is possible to see a response to a message before seeing the original.
Giving context helps everyone. But do not include the entire original!"

Oh, and as for the buffoon who thinks that USENET should not be
capitalized, he needs to explain that position to the authors of the
RFCs.

 
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