Alternatives to ROM. Magnetic vs. Electric

[Radium]

[.....]
3. Magnetic parts
Why would you care if it is magnetic? Non-linear magneto-optical
effects could allow very fast logic at extremely low power levels.
Eventually the signal has to become electric for processing. Why waste
time converting signals from electric to magnetic [and visa versa]?
I think you missed the point. The signals start out as keystrokes and
mouse clicks and end up as dots on a CRT. We only make them into
electronic signals because we have a very easy way to process
electronic signals. There is no reason to not convert them to light
or magnetic fields if that provides a way to process them very quickly
at low power levels.
[.....]

Okay, however, I don't see any advantage to converting electric
signals to magnetic signals. Optical, maybe or maybe not, depending on
the application. But definitely not magnetic.

You have ruled out magnetics without having explored everything it may
bring you. You need to imagine the PC you really want and not how it
is done.

What are the advantages of magnetics vs. electrics?

Think of a box with a monitor and keyboard etc plugged into it. You
can't see into the box all you know is that it does everything you
neede it to do, there are no moving parts, it draws very little power
and will have a life over 100 years.
Okay.

If this is the PC you want, why are you setting limits on whats inside
it beyond that?

It's a matter of personal preference.

A PC with the mathematically low amount of ROM would by its nature be
slow.
Why?

I'm sure you have "zipped" and "unzipped" files. The process
of unzipping is converting a lower number of bits into a larger number
that are easier to deal with in software. It takes a while to do this
process. This extra time is what you would be adding to your PC.

[....]

I don't use zip, unless I really need to. So far, I've never had to.

Winzip is a pain in the @$$.

No, it contains one. The buttons and stuff are there too and they
aren't ROM.

Is the ROM built into the keyboard?

MooseFET wrote:

Radium, perhaps this simplified example of a keyboard will help you to
think through what you are talking about.
Okay.

Let's look at the requirements. You have about 100 switches (keys) and
when each one is pressed, you want to output a specific 8 bit pattern
(the ASCII code for the key). The logic for this is pretty simple to
synthesize. You have 100 circuits, each similar to each other but
slightly different. Each one, when corresponding the switch is pressed
enables a pattern of logical highs and lows to the output bus. This
will work, but now you have 100 separate circuits. If each circuit was
one one chip, it would take 100 chips. OK, no one would do that - you
certainly would combine them. But now you have a chip with 100 inputs
and pins are expensive. So let's say we arrange the switches in a 10 by
10 matrix so that what is output when a switch is pressed is the row and
column of the matrix corresponding to that switch. So now you have 20
inputs. But with an other simple circuit you can use a 4 bit value to
indicate which of the 10 rows the pressed key belongs to. Similarly for
the column. Now we are down to 8 bits. These can be fed into a chip
that decodes these 8 inputs (again, easy to synthesize) into one of 100
lines. These in turn select one of 100 patterns of logic highs and lows
to output.

Interesting. In '90, I had a green monochrome Corona PC. Its keyboard
did not connect to the PC via pins but rather through a cord
resembling a telephone cord. The plugs on both ends resembled that
used for telephones.

This chip, the one that takes the 8 inputs (AKA address) and
outputs a particular pattern (AKA data) *is* a ROM.

What are the alternatives to ROM?

There is nothing
inherently wrong with ROM, it is just a more convenient and lower cost
way to do what you could otherwise do with discrete logic.

I am aware that there is nothing objectively wrong with ROM. However,
as a matter of personal preference, I would like other alternatives.
It's like preferring garlic over onions [or visa versa].

 

[MooseFET]

[.... much snipped ....]

What are the advantages of magnetics vs. electrics?

There are no electro-optical nonlinear effects that you could use to
do the same trick. It is a very new area of physics.

[... snip ...]

I am aware that there is nothing objectively wrong with ROM. However,
as a matter of personal preference, I would like other alternatives.
It's like preferring garlic over onions [or visa versa].

No its more like preferring garlic over gravel. All the other ways of
doing are either ROMs in funny cloths like a CPLD or buckets of
decrete logic.

 

[Radium]

I am aware that there is nothing objectively wrong with ROM. However,
as a matter of personal preference, I would like other alternatives.
It's like preferring garlic over onions [or visa versa].

No its more like preferring garlic over gravel. All the other ways of
doing are either ROMs in funny cloths like a CPLD or buckets of
decrete logic.

I prefer the discrete logic over the ROM.

 

[Bob Myers]

I prefer the discrete logic over the ROM.

But for no apparent reason, right?

Bob M.

 

[Radium]

But for no apparent reason, right?

I like things to be lively. Discrete logic is far more effervescent
than ROM.

 

[MooseFET]

I like things to be lively. Discrete logic is far more effervescent
than ROM.

But it isn't more effervescent. In order to make disscrete logic
perform a given operation, the gates must be wired in a specific way.
This wiring is where the information is stored when you use descrete
logic. The wires remain the same so the information is always there.

If you look at the internal design of a PROM, you will find a large
amount of logic and an array of some sort of electronic switches. Way
back in the past the switches were little fuses. The process of
programming a PROM was to burn the unwanted fuses to beak the unwanted
connections.

 

[Stephen J. Rush]

But it isn't more effervescent. In order to make disscrete logic
perform a given operation, the gates must be wired in a specific way.
This wiring is where the information is stored when you use descrete
logic. The wires remain the same so the information is always there.

If you look at the internal design of a PROM, you will find a large
amount of logic and an array of some sort of electronic switches. Way
back in the past the switches were little fuses. The process of
programming a PROM was to burn the unwanted fuses to beak the unwanted
connections.

Radium is a troll. He gets his jollies from seeing how many people he can
get to take him seriously. This isn't as bad as the usual way-off-topic
insult-slinging troll, but he still isn't worth the bandwidth he wastes.

 

[MooseFET]

Radium is a troll. He gets his jollies from seeing how many people he can
get to take him seriously. This isn't as bad as the usual way-off-topic
insult-slinging troll, but he still isn't worth the bandwidth he wastes.

I see no evidence that he really is a troll. Merely being wrong isn't
trolling. Do you have some previous experience with him?

 

[kony]

Radium is a troll. He gets his jollies from seeing how many people he can
get to take him seriously. This isn't as bad as the usual way-off-topic
insult-slinging troll, but he still isn't worth the bandwidth he wastes.

In many ways it's worse than the insult-slinging type
because Radium sucks innocent bystanders into conversations,
people who don't even realize Radium has no purpose, that
some discussions are just repeats of same thing Radium
posted previous months or last year.

 

[Radium]

In order to make disscrete logic
perform a given operation, the gates must be wired in a specific way.
This wiring is where the information is stored when you use descrete
logic. The wires remain the same so the information is always there.

This is what I would like. Hardwired logic as opposed to software
programming. In hardware logic, the information "stored" and
"programming" is determined by the way the chip's circuits are
mechanically built. When an electric current is passed through a
certain of those circuits, specific signals [of instructions and
information] are generated. Depending on an individual's view, this
may or may not be a type of "ROM". Even if it is, I still like it
because this "storage" is really determined by the way the circuits
are physically-designed; hence the instructions are freshly-generated
each time electricity is passed through the chip.

 

[Bob Myers]

I like things to be lively. Discrete logic is far more effervescent
than ROM.

Which means...what, exactly?

Bob M.

 

[krw]

In many ways it's worse than the insult-slinging type
because Radium sucks innocent bystanders into conversations,

What a *horrible* thing, to be sucked into a conversation. Maybe
you'd rather join the kook invasion?

people who don't even realize Radium has no purpose, that
some discussions are just repeats of same thing Radium
posted previous months or last year.

Sure. Noone is forcing you to read or respond, though sometimes
something interesting pops out of the strangest threads.

 

[David L. Jones]

I like things to be lively. Discrete logic is far more effervescent
than ROM.

If you want lively, you can't beat Monkeys flipping switches. That
would make it a biological processor.
Logic density kind of sucks though, maybe one Monkey per square foot,
but you can stack them. You'd then have a 3D biological processor -
cool.

Worked a treat for the early space program.

Dave.

 

[The little lost angel]

programming. In hardware logic, the information "stored" and
"programming" is determined by the way the chip's circuits are
mechanically built. When an electric current is passed through a
certain of those circuits, specific signals [of instructions and
information] are generated. Depending on an individual's view, this
may or may not be a type of "ROM".

It IS ROM. You give a certain input to it and you will get a certain
output, every time, just like ROM.

Even if it is, I still like it

So now the no-ROM issue out of the way? Great, now maybe somebody can
show you the light about magnetic storage and other stuff pPp

 

[Radium]

programming. In hardware logic, the information "stored" and
"programming" is determined by the way the chip's circuits are
mechanically built. When an electric current is passed through a
certain of those circuits, specific signals [of instructions and
information] are generated. Depending on an individual's view, this
may or may not be a type of "ROM".

It IS ROM. You give a certain input to it and you will get a certain
output, every time, just like ROM.
Okay.

So now the no-ROM issue out of the way?

Yes. As long the ROM-signals are determined by the way the chip's
circuits are mechanically built. When an electric current is passed
through a certain of those circuits, specific signals [of instructions
and information] should be generated.

Great, now maybe somebody can
show you the light about magnetic storage and other stuff pPp

Nope.

The only thing I'd like to use magnetic signals for is described in
here:

http://groups.google.com/group/Crea...egen1+magnetic&rnum=15&hl=en#d57c8a76f8118694

Quotes from the above link :

"I would like to make some replicable magnetic electronic nanobots
that will search for sample playback MIDI synths, softsynths,
emulations, and soundfonts in any part of the world and attach to the
digital chips of sample playback MIDI synths, softsynths, emulations,
and soundfonts. These nanobots should contain magnetic receivers that
will extract any random environmental magnetic audio signals from 2
kHz to 50 kHz [excluding spikes, square-waves, white noise, brown
noise, pink noise and bass sounds]. The nanobots then amplify those
signals to the point where they would significantly interfere with --
and cause inductive crosstalk in -- the audio signals in the digital
electronic chips of the sample playback MIDI synths, softsynths,
emulations, and soundfonts. This will cause sample playback MIDI
synths, softsynths, emulations, and soundfonts to be full of annoying
-- and perhaps even frightening -- auditory disruptions from
environmental magnetic interference**."

"**Note: The magnetic signals that interfere with those digital chips
should be purely-analog. I just love it when purely-analog magnetic
signals cause significant disruptions in purely-digital chip-based
parts of electronic devices that I don't like. Sample playback MIDI
synths, softsynths, emulations, and soundfonts are an example of
digital electronic devices that I don't like so I want to victimize
them in this manner -- i.e. via magnetic interferences."

 

[kony]

What a *horrible* thing, to be sucked into a conversation. Maybe
you'd rather join the kook invasion?

Usually there is some purpose w/other posts, it's not just a
black hole of wasted time. Radium can tend to play on
other people's generosity in that they don't yet realize
there really ISN'T any purpose at all.

Sure. Noone is forcing you to read or respond, though sometimes
something interesting pops out of the strangest threads.

Yes, sometimes regardless of the senselessness, something
interesting pops out. Now pause and ponder for a moment
that given that number of participants and their time, used
differently these resources might've produced something even
more interesting.

Basically you're just wrong though, if you lack interesting
topics in your chosen forum, the answer is not to wait
around for a troll, it's to find something that DOES
interest you.

 

[SteveH]

Which means...what, exactly?

Bob M.

That would be bubble memory.
;-)
SteveH

 

[krw]

Usually there is some purpose w/other posts, it's not just a
black hole of wasted time.

*YOU* are wasting your time. Radium isn't.

Radium can tend to play on
other people's generosity in that they don't yet realize
there really ISN'T any purpose at all.

You're the one who has made the CHOICE to waste your time. You can
easily kill the entire thread.

Yes, sometimes regardless of the senselessness, something
interesting pops out. Now pause and ponder for a moment
that given that number of participants and their time, used
differently these resources might've produced something even
more interesting.

Every participant is in exactly the same position as you. They have
all decided that it was wort their wasted time to respond. You have
a problem with that?

Basically you're just wrong though, if you lack interesting
topics in your chosen forum, the answer is not to wait
around for a troll, it's to find something that DOES
interest you.

If I've responded, it obviously does interest me. Unless you are a
complete idiot, you are no different.

 

[MooseFET]

programming. In hardware logic, the information "stored" and
"programming" is determined by the way the chip's circuits are
mechanically built. When an electric current is passed through a
certain of those circuits, specific signals [of instructions and
information] are generated. Depending on an individual's view, this
may or may not be a type of "ROM".

It IS ROM. You give a certain input to it and you will get a certain
output, every time, just like ROM.
Okay.

Even if it is, I still like it

So now the no-ROM issue out of the way?

Yes. As long the ROM-signals are determined by the way the chip's
circuits are mechanically built. When an electric current is passed
through a certain of those circuits, specific signals [of instructions
and information] should be generated.

That would be a "masked ROM", a fuse or anti-fuse PROM. In each of
these there is a mechanical difference between a location that is a
one and a zero.

Stuff like the microcode in a processor is masked ROM. The micro
inside your keyboard and video cards are likely also to be masked.

Parts like Flash Proms only have electrical differences between ones
and zeros. If you are making less than a million of anything, the
Masked ROM is likely to be too costly of a way to go.

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

That would be a "masked ROM", a fuse or anti-fuse PROM. In each
of these there is a mechanical difference between a location
that is a one and a zero.

Stuff like the microcode in a processor is masked ROM. The micro
inside your keyboard and video cards are likely also to be masked.

I don't think CPUs (since the Intel Pentium FDIV debacle) use masked
ROM. Or at least, not exclusively. Large portions of microcode
are loaded by BIOS to permit relatively easy bugfixes. CPU mfrs
provide a binary lump to BIOS writers. AFAICS, the microcode gets
loaded each boot into something analogous to SRAM. (DRAM?).

Parts like Flash Proms only have electrical differences between
ones and zeros. If you are making less than a million of anything,
the Masked ROM is likely to be too costly of a way to go.

Or if modifiability is important. It is for CPUs, and probably also
for GPUs.

-- Robert