Along came a spider, and it's name was?

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Dave

DFI, or Foxconn?

Getting ready to build a rather unique system. Unique in the sense that I
have a couple of different goals for it. First, I want it to last 6 years
minimum with no breakdown of a major component, to include the power supply.
Yes, I've built systems that have lasted this long, and longer...under daily
use, with no problems. Partly because I know which brands are good and
which ones try really really hard to LOOK good. So hard that they even fool
many so-called "experts". :)

But my secondary goal makes this build a bit of a challenge. The last
system I built specifically to run Vista runs Vista fine. But it scores 4.2
on WEI. I built it before I knew that there WAS a WEI. Knowing the scale
goes up to 5.9 (currently), I wondered what it would take to reach 5.9 on
everything in WEI. I found an article claiming it would take about $2500
in hardware for a DIY type to get 5.9 WEI, guaranteed. But I was wondering,
how cheaply could it be done? Could I drop that number to less than a
grand? Including Vista Home Premium and shipping? Without compromising
quality and/or longevity? Yikes. I mean, I know it willl be easy to max
out vista on less than a grand, but to end up with something that isn't
junk???

After doing many days of research, in what little free time I have, I came
to realize that what I keep coming back to is a system code-named "spider".
That is, AMD chipset mainboard, AMD Phenom something or other and AMD 3000
series graphics. Spider. I was actually specing out a "spider" system
before I knew that there was a name for it. :)

I've narrowed down my list of possible motherboards to the Foxconn A7DA-S or
the DFI 790FX-M2RS. Overall, I like the specs. of the Foxconn board better,
but I've never built with Foxconn, which makes me somewhat nervous. I mean,
have they even been making motherboards for 6 years??? They've got a good
rep, but it wasn't built on motherboards.

The way I see it:
(ignoring the specs they have in common)
Foxconn DFI
A7DA-s 790FX-M2RS
5-phase power ???? phase power
2 PCI slots 3 PCI slots
4 USB on I/O 6 USB on I/O
Good Overclocking Good Overclocking
DDR2 1066 DDR2 800

They both appear to have 5-phase voltage regulators, but I can't confirm the
DFI. Still, DFI makes awesome quality mainboards, so I'll assume that DFI
did not screw this up. Tie.
I'd rather have 3 PCI slots, so DFI wins here.
I'll have to add USB ports to the Foxconn, but this is not a big deal. I
guess I'll call it a Tie.
DDR2 1066 is a huge plus, so I'm leaning heavily toward the Foxconn. If
that was an AOpen or Biostar board, it would be a done deal. But Foxconn?

Decisions, decisions. Any thoughts? In case anybody is curious, the system
is general use, not a gamer. -Dave

Other specs (not set in stone, but leaning that way)
2GB (2 X 1GB) OCZ brand RAM WITH heatsink, specific model will vary by
mainboard, obviously
Sapphire 512MB HD 3870 video (just one)
Seasonic SS-550HT power supply
AMD Phenom 8750 X3 Toliman BLACK Edition (I'm taking a chance here, might
not hit 5.9...could go with a 9850 to guarantee 5.9, but where's the
challenge in that???)
NZXT Alpha Mid-Tower case
Window Vista Home Premium 32-bit OEM
Seagate Barracuda 160GB 7200RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s (I've got an older Seagate
SATA drive that scores 5.8 by itself, but I believe it's being held back by
an older mainboard chipset with less SATA bandwidth. This will be the boot
drive. A larger IDE drive recycled from another system will be extra data
storage.)
Sony NEC 20X SATA DVD burner

Did I miss anything? :) No, I haven't chosen the sound card, yet. Not
crazy about Creative products, so my selection is severely limited, which is
what is taking me so long to find it... (and I won't be using onboard sound)

Total looks to be just shy of $800, including OS and shipping, at newegg
prices. I could shave $100 or more off of this, if I just wanted to hit 5.9
WEI cheaply. But I want it to last 6 years, so that's what is keeping the
cost up a little.
 
Dave said:
DFI, or Foxconn?

Getting ready to build a rather unique system. Unique in the sense that I
have a couple of different goals for it. First, I want it to last 6 years
minimum with no breakdown of a major component, to include the power supply.
Yes, I've built systems that have lasted this long, and longer...under daily
use, with no problems. Partly because I know which brands are good and
which ones try really really hard to LOOK good. So hard that they even fool
many so-called "experts". :)

But my secondary goal makes this build a bit of a challenge. The last
system I built specifically to run Vista runs Vista fine. But it scores 4.2
on WEI. I built it before I knew that there WAS a WEI. Knowing the scale
goes up to 5.9 (currently), I wondered what it would take to reach 5.9 on
everything in WEI. I found an article claiming it would take about $2500
in hardware for a DIY type to get 5.9 WEI, guaranteed. But I was wondering,
how cheaply could it be done? Could I drop that number to less than a
grand? Including Vista Home Premium and shipping? Without compromising
quality and/or longevity? Yikes. I mean, I know it willl be easy to max
out vista on less than a grand, but to end up with something that isn't
junk???

After doing many days of research, in what little free time I have, I came
to realize that what I keep coming back to is a system code-named "spider".
That is, AMD chipset mainboard, AMD Phenom something or other and AMD 3000
series graphics. Spider. I was actually specing out a "spider" system
before I knew that there was a name for it. :)

I've narrowed down my list of possible motherboards to the Foxconn A7DA-S or
the DFI 790FX-M2RS. Overall, I like the specs. of the Foxconn board better,
but I've never built with Foxconn, which makes me somewhat nervous. I mean,
have they even been making motherboards for 6 years??? They've got a good
rep, but it wasn't built on motherboards.

The way I see it:
(ignoring the specs they have in common)
Foxconn DFI
A7DA-s 790FX-M2RS
5-phase power ???? phase power
2 PCI slots 3 PCI slots
4 USB on I/O 6 USB on I/O
Good Overclocking Good Overclocking
DDR2 1066 DDR2 800

They both appear to have 5-phase voltage regulators, but I can't confirm the
DFI. Still, DFI makes awesome quality mainboards, so I'll assume that DFI
did not screw this up. Tie.
I'd rather have 3 PCI slots, so DFI wins here.
I'll have to add USB ports to the Foxconn, but this is not a big deal. I
guess I'll call it a Tie.
DDR2 1066 is a huge plus, so I'm leaning heavily toward the Foxconn. If
that was an AOpen or Biostar board, it would be a done deal. But Foxconn?

Decisions, decisions. Any thoughts? In case anybody is curious, the system
is general use, not a gamer. -Dave

Other specs (not set in stone, but leaning that way)
2GB (2 X 1GB) OCZ brand RAM WITH heatsink, specific model will vary by
mainboard, obviously
Sapphire 512MB HD 3870 video (just one)
Seasonic SS-550HT power supply
AMD Phenom 8750 X3 Toliman BLACK Edition (I'm taking a chance here, might
not hit 5.9...could go with a 9850 to guarantee 5.9, but where's the
challenge in that???)
NZXT Alpha Mid-Tower case
Window Vista Home Premium 32-bit OEM
Seagate Barracuda 160GB 7200RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s (I've got an older Seagate
SATA drive that scores 5.8 by itself, but I believe it's being held back by
an older mainboard chipset with less SATA bandwidth. This will be the boot
drive. A larger IDE drive recycled from another system will be extra data
storage.)
Sony NEC 20X SATA DVD burner

Did I miss anything? :) No, I haven't chosen the sound card, yet. Not
crazy about Creative products, so my selection is severely limited, which is
what is taking me so long to find it... (and I won't be using onboard sound)

Total looks to be just shy of $800, including OS and shipping, at newegg
prices. I could shave $100 or more off of this, if I just wanted to hit 5.9
WEI cheaply. But I want it to last 6 years, so that's what is keeping the
cost up a little.
Click to expand...

There are some CPU WEI numbers here.

*******
http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/99609816/m/961009454931/r/504008654931

C2D E8400 @ 3.0 ghz Processor: 5.8 (Apparently other factors play a part,
Processor: 5.7 so the CPU benchmark depends on more
Processor: 5.6 than the CPU.)
Core 2 Quad Q6600 (2.4GHz) Processor: 5.9
C2D E8400 @ 3.6 Processor: 5.9
*******

So 2x3.0 = 6 units, gives 5.8
2x3.6 = 7.2 units, gives 5.9
4x2.4 = 9.6 units, gives 5.9

Hard to say how AMD would compare. On integer, Q6600 beats AMD. On
floating point, then a 9850 or 9950 would be needed to match it.
So a Toliman won't be enough, as near as I can guess. You'd need
the top AMD processor, if you hope to hit 5.9. And it's not that
expensive.

There is a 125W version of 9950 being offered on Newegg, but it
appears to only have been there for a few days. No real buyer
feedback yet. The regular one is 140W.

9950 125W $184
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103291

On the Asus CPUSupport charts, that 125W processor is referred to
as the "995Z". Versus the 140W one being the "9950". So only
the amdcompare.com site, doesn't know its own product line :-(
Amdcompare.com still only lists the 140W one.

Paul
 
There are some CPU WEI numbers here.
*******
http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/99609816/m/961009454931/r
/504008654931

C2D E8400 @ 3.0 ghz Processor: 5.8 (Apparently other factors play a part,
Processor: 5.7 so the CPU benchmark depends on more
Processor: 5.6 than the CPU.)
Core 2 Quad Q6600 (2.4GHz) Processor: 5.9
C2D E8400 @ 3.6 Processor: 5.9
*******

So 2x3.0 = 6 units, gives 5.8
2x3.6 = 7.2 units, gives 5.9
4x2.4 = 9.6 units, gives 5.9

Hard to say how AMD would compare. On integer, Q6600 beats AMD. On
floating point, then a 9850 or 9950 would be needed to match it.
So a Toliman won't be enough, as near as I can guess. You'd need
the top AMD processor, if you hope to hit 5.9. And it's not that
expensive.
Click to expand...

According to my best guesstimate, a Toliman would need to be clocked at
2.8GHz to score 5.9 on WEI. This processor (8750) is one of the first
phenoms said to overclock well, some have reported 3GHz stable. I'm not
counting on it. I'll be happy to hit 2.6 or 2.7GHz stable, which should be
no problem with either motherboard, the DFI or the Foxconn. But then there
is the X factor. That is, a CPU that is capable of 5.9 can be held back by
other components. And, those "other components" can be held back by a slow
CPU, also. There are just way too many variables to predict what your WEI
score will be, until the system is actually built. But near as I can tell,
I will be one of the first builders to use really high quality components to
support a 8750, AND who cares to benchmark it with WEI. It's going to be an
interesting experiment to be sure. I'll be surprised, but not too
disappointed, if the CPU doesn't quite hit 5.9. In other words, if I aim
for 5.9 and hit 5.8 with the lowest score being the CPU, but the CPU is
STABLE and cool at 5.8 WEI, I'll be happy. And if that happens, I will have
confirmed that, building with AMD, the minimum requirement for 5.9 WEI is a
9850:

A 9850 at 2.5GHz will do 5.9 on WEI (not overclocked). But this is $35
extra, and draws more power from the power supply and voltage regulators.
This will also generate more heat that needs to be removed. All this is not
a big deal, but I see no reason for four cores (as opposed to JUST three
anyway) at any time that this system will be in use. Besides, if you know
in advance what your WEI score will be, what's the fun in that? Ha Ha
And a 9950 at 125W (now that there is such an animal) will be virtually
identical to a 9850, yet cost a little more.

Actually, a two core processor would probably do just fine, for now. But
I've always been partial to AMD, even with their recent troubles. And with
these triple-core processors being fast and relatively cheap, I see no
reason not to give it a shot. :)

I did consider a Q6600, but couldn't stomach paying 50 bucks more for a
processor clocked at 2.4GHz. And a Core 2 Duo is so ummmmm, yesterday. :)

I have nothing against Intel. I've built with them in the past, will
probably build with them in the future. But I want to go with AMD this time
around. I suspect that having three or four cores will help tremendously,
whenever the next OS (to replace Vista) is released. So I think a 8750 is a
wiser choice for future-proofing than a C2D anything. Not that I care to
future-proof this system, but if the price is low, it's a no-brainer to opt
for a more future-proof processor. And as I said before, a Q6600 just does
not look that appealing for an extra 50 bucks, and that is the least
expensive processor with more than two cores in the Intel lineup, near as I
can tell. -Dave
 
Dave said:
DFI, or Foxconn?

Getting ready to build a rather unique system. Unique in the sense that I
have a couple of different goals for it. First, I want it to last 6 years
minimum with no breakdown of a major component, to include the power
supply.
Yes, I've built systems that have lasted this long, and longer...under
daily
use, with no problems. Partly because I know which brands are good and
which ones try really really hard to LOOK good. So hard that they even
fool
many so-called "experts". :)

But my secondary goal makes this build a bit of a challenge. The last
system I built specifically to run Vista runs Vista fine. But it scores
4.2
on WEI. I built it before I knew that there WAS a WEI. Knowing the scale
goes up to 5.9 (currently), I wondered what it would take to reach 5.9 on
everything in WEI. I found an article claiming it would take about $2500
in hardware for a DIY type to get 5.9 WEI, guaranteed. But I was
wondering,
how cheaply could it be done? Could I drop that number to less than a
grand? Including Vista Home Premium and shipping? Without compromising
quality and/or longevity? Yikes. I mean, I know it willl be easy to max
out vista on less than a grand, but to end up with something that isn't
junk???

After doing many days of research, in what little free time I have, I came
to realize that what I keep coming back to is a system code-named
"spider".
That is, AMD chipset mainboard, AMD Phenom something or other and AMD 3000
series graphics. Spider. I was actually specing out a "spider" system
before I knew that there was a name for it. :)

I've narrowed down my list of possible motherboards to the Foxconn A7DA-S
or
the DFI 790FX-M2RS. Overall, I like the specs. of the Foxconn board
better,
but I've never built with Foxconn, which makes me somewhat nervous. I
mean,
have they even been making motherboards for 6 years??? They've got a good
rep, but it wasn't built on motherboards.

The way I see it:
(ignoring the specs they have in common)
Foxconn DFI
A7DA-s 790FX-M2RS
5-phase power ???? phase power
2 PCI slots 3 PCI slots
4 USB on I/O 6 USB on I/O
Good Overclocking Good Overclocking
DDR2 1066 DDR2 800

They both appear to have 5-phase voltage regulators, but I can't confirm
the
DFI.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by "5-phase voltage regulators"?

Charlie
 
Charlie said:
What do you mean by "5-phase voltage regulators"?

Charlie
Click to expand...

Next to the CPU socket, is the CPU Vcore voltage regulator circuit.
You'll see toroidal coils there, or square inductor packages. Each
one is a "phase", because each one pumps at a different point in time.
They are phase shifted, and working as a team, work at an effectively
higher frequency. Their outputs are eventually summed together.
____ ___
_____| |_____________________|
____
____________| |________________
____
___________________| |_________
___ ____
|_____________________| |___

In the case of the AM2+ motherboards, there are actually two circuits
there. One of the toriods and associated MOSFETs, powers some memory
and cache related circuits in the Phenom processor. The remaining phases
feed into Vcore.

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3279&p=3

The number of phases is used as a rough metric, of the Vcore conversion
capability in watts. When high powered processors are used, a three
phase Vcore circuit (ignoring the phase used for memory interface), would
likely burn up. So a 4+1 phase is suspected to be evidence that the
circuit is capable. There is a certain danger by estimating board performance
that way, and a safer way is to use the CPUSupport chart on the manufacturer's
web page, to see whether they include 125W or 140W processors, as being
supported. On some motherboards, the CPU Support chart stops at 95W,
and that tells you the Vcore circuit is a wimp :-)

Here is Asus making fun of a competitor, when Asus had a board
burn up as well. At least Asus learned their lesson, with some
newer models having five total phases. They are pointing out
their MOSFET configuration in this picture, but I'm not buying
it. You use whatever MOSFET configuration will work without
overheating. A designer can use one larger MOSFET, in place of
two tiny ones. The gate capacitance is a consideration, and
many Vcore regulator designs consist of a main chip and a buffer
chip per phase, where the buffer chip is used to charge the
3000pF gate capacitance of the big MOSFET. The number of phases
is a general indicator that someone at the factory, cared to
make a capable design. (If you look at the price range of
motherboards on Newegg, the expensive Intel boards might have
eight phases, down to three phases for the $50 boards. So phases
and price tend to go hand in hand.)

http://event.asus.com/mb/140w/images/2nd.jpg

When an AM2+ board has 4+1 phases, it means there is a good
chance that you'll be able to upgrade it to a high powered
processor later.

There is nothing wrong with a board with wimpy Vcore circuit,
if you're always going to have a low end dual core processor
installed in it. The issue is with the ability of a motherboard,
to support any processor that fits in the socket. The marketing
mistake made, leading up to that Anandtech article, was assuming
they'd get away with making substandard Vcore designs. That no
customer would be affected by the (pennypinching) decision.

Paul
 
Charlie said:
Thank you Paul for the useful information. I was totally unaware of this
type of Vcore regulating.

Charlie
Click to expand...

There is an example here. I get these for the pictures :-)
On page 3, there is one main chip (the regulator chip),
four eight pin buffer chips, to drive MOSFETs. Twelve
MOSFETs (four high side, eight low side). The toroids
are L2,L3,L4,L5. What comes out, is up to 1.6VDC at
115 amps (suitable for welding).

http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/ADP3290-D.PDF

Paul
 
Paul said:
Next to the CPU socket, is the CPU Vcore voltage regulator circuit.
You'll see toroidal coils there, or square inductor packages. Each
one is a "phase", because each one pumps at a different point in time.
They are phase shifted, and working as a team, work at an effectively
higher frequency. Their outputs are eventually summed together.
____ ___
_____| |_____________________|
____
____________| |________________
____
___________________| |_________
___ ____
|_____________________| |___

In the case of the AM2+ motherboards, there are actually two circuits
there. One of the toriods and associated MOSFETs, powers some memory
and cache related circuits in the Phenom processor. The remaining phases
feed into Vcore.

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3279&p=3

The number of phases is used as a rough metric, of the Vcore conversion
capability in watts. When high powered processors are used, a three
phase Vcore circuit (ignoring the phase used for memory interface), would
likely burn up. So a 4+1 phase is suspected to be evidence that the
circuit is capable. There is a certain danger by estimating board
performance
that way, and a safer way is to use the CPUSupport chart on the
manufacturer's
web page, to see whether they include 125W or 140W processors, as being
supported. On some motherboards, the CPU Support chart stops at 95W,
and that tells you the Vcore circuit is a wimp :-)

Here is Asus making fun of a competitor, when Asus had a board
burn up as well. At least Asus learned their lesson, with some
newer models having five total phases. They are pointing out
their MOSFET configuration in this picture, but I'm not buying
it. You use whatever MOSFET configuration will work without
overheating. A designer can use one larger MOSFET, in place of
two tiny ones. The gate capacitance is a consideration, and
many Vcore regulator designs consist of a main chip and a buffer
chip per phase, where the buffer chip is used to charge the
3000pF gate capacitance of the big MOSFET. The number of phases
is a general indicator that someone at the factory, cared to
make a capable design. (If you look at the price range of
motherboards on Newegg, the expensive Intel boards might have
eight phases, down to three phases for the $50 boards. So phases
and price tend to go hand in hand.)

http://event.asus.com/mb/140w/images/2nd.jpg

When an AM2+ board has 4+1 phases, it means there is a good
chance that you'll be able to upgrade it to a high powered
processor later.

There is nothing wrong with a board with wimpy Vcore circuit,
if you're always going to have a low end dual core processor
installed in it. The issue is with the ability of a motherboard,
to support any processor that fits in the socket. The marketing
mistake made, leading up to that Anandtech article, was assuming
they'd get away with making substandard Vcore designs. That no
customer would be affected by the (pennypinching) decision.

Paul
Click to expand...

Thank you Paul for the useful information. I was totally unaware of this
type of Vcore regulating.

Charlie
 
Paul said:
There is an example here. I get these for the pictures :-)
On page 3, there is one main chip (the regulator chip),
four eight pin buffer chips, to drive MOSFETs. Twelve
MOSFETs (four high side, eight low side). The toroids
are L2,L3,L4,L5. What comes out, is up to 1.6VDC at
115 amps (suitable for welding).

http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/ADP3290-D.PDF

Paul
Click to expand...

Thanks again Paul. The information is appreciated. I had often wondered
about the high currents in some computer circuits (as you say, suitable for
welding). Now I know how they are handled/generated without burning
something up.

Charlie
 
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