Aftermarket Ink longevity

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TJ

My family operates a farm stand, and I print signs for various purposes
on that stand. Most are stapled to a piece of painted plywood,
bulletin-board fashion. These signs aren't meant to last too long, as
the things the signs are about change with the season. They also are
exposed to the sun, wind, and rain, and the paper will fall apart before
too long. I use the cheapest aftermarket ink I can find that is still
labeled, "Pigmented black." After all, why should I use expensive OEM
ink for something that will probably only last a few days anyway?

Three weeks ago, I printed a group of signs on ordinary Office Max U.S.
legal-sized copy paper, using an old copy of Print Shop. One sign said
"Sweet" and another said "Corn." Yet another had the price per dozen.
Those signs were up in a straight week of August sunshine, followed by a
thunderstorm, more sun, more rain, cloudiness, drizzle, a bit more sun,
and today more rain and some wind. The paper is starting to deteriorate,
but the printing is still crisp and dark, highly readable. It did not
run when wet, the way dye-based ink does. And in case you think I just
don't see the aging, consider this: The price sign has been changed
twice in that period, the last time four days ago, and you can't see any
difference in print quality between the four-day-old and three-week-old
signs.

My point? It's simple. Depending on the application, even the cheapest
aftermarket ink can give satisfactory results.

TJ
 
My point? It's simple. Depending on the application, even the cheapest
aftermarket ink can give satisfactory results.
Click to expand...

Pigmented ink for text has extremely long fade life, I have heard rumors
of 200+ years. I do not know of any manufacturers that even specify
text fade for a couple of reasons: 1) even with accelerated testing it
would take an enormous time to conduct the test and 2) ~nobody cares
:-).

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging
 
Bob said:
Pigmented ink for text has extremely long fade life, I have heard rumors
of 200+ years. I do not know of any manufacturers that even specify
text fade for a couple of reasons: 1) even with accelerated testing it
would take an enormous time to conduct the test and 2) ~nobody cares :-).

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging
Click to expand...

Makes one wonder then, why someone doesn't work out a satisfactory way
to use pigmented ink for photos, too.

TJ
 
Like you, I don't have any complaints with the cheap third-party ink I
use.
It did not run when wet
Click to expand...

That surprises me... I had a letter returned to me once because the
address which I had printed with pigment ink, had become illegible
where some postman had exposed it to rain.

Al D
 
The conversation below certainly implies a lack of knowledge about the
printer market. Beginning with the Epson R800, 1800, 2400 etc the
printers all use pigmented ink.
 
Al said:
Like you, I don't have any complaints with the cheap third-party ink I
use.


That surprises me... I had a letter returned to me once because the
address which I had printed with pigment ink, had become illegible
where some postman had exposed it to rain.

Al D
Click to expand...
Doesn't surprise me! Several weeks ago I did a
test of papers printed one sided and duplex on my
iP4000 using alotofthings ink. I let them dry and
then thoroughly washed them in a sink. Other than
being all crumply from the washing and drying they
are still perfectly readable.

I just tried another test (while writing this) on
my HP970, printed a page, ripped it halves for two
separate test, took the first half immediately to
the sink, stuck the paper in and turned on the
faucet and closed the drain. Swished the paper
around around and rubbed with my hands (no
bleeding), rubbed it some more, swiped a bar of
soap across it (which maid it smear a little),
washed it some more (which removed the smear), and
now it sits in front of me. Not very readable due
to torn place and some torn parts missing but the
text remains clear.

So Canon after market ink and HP OEM black ink are
highly water resistant.
If your printed papers smear with a bit of water,
maybe you need a new printer or new ink.
 
Like you, I don't have any complaints with the cheap third-party ink I
use.


That surprises me... I had a letter returned to me once because the
address which I had printed with pigment ink, had become illegible
where some postman had exposed it to rain.

Al D
Click to expand...

I think the claim of pigmented ink being more water-resistant than dye
is rather overstated. While pigment inks are /more likely/ to be
water-resistant, it does not /automatically/ make them
water-resistant.

My HP 1100D had pigment black, which, while less runny than the dye
colors, would easily become illegible when wet.

My Epson C88 has aftermarket pigment black that is far, far more water
resistant than the HP pigment black was. However, it seemed to be less
resistant than the colors, strangely enough. Since I recycle the waste
ink into the black cartridge, they all seem to have the same level of
permanence now.

--

http://www.FenrirOnline.com

Computer services, custom metal etching,
arts, crafts, and much more.
 
Doesn't surprise me! Several weeks ago I did a
test of papers printed one sided and duplex on my
iP4000 using alotofthings ink. I let them dry and
then thoroughly washed them in a sink. Other than
being all crumply from the washing and drying they
are still perfectly readable.

I just tried another test (while writing this) on
my HP970, printed a page, ripped it halves for two
separate test, took the first half immediately to
the sink, stuck the paper in and turned on the
faucet and closed the drain. Swished the paper
around around and rubbed with my hands (no
bleeding), rubbed it some more, swiped a bar of
soap across it (which maid it smear a little),
washed it some more (which removed the smear), and
now it sits in front of me. Not very readable due
to torn place and some torn parts missing but the
text remains clear.

So Canon after market ink and HP OEM black ink are
highly water resistant.
If your printed papers smear with a bit of water,
maybe you need a new printer or new ink.
Click to expand...

More likely, you used a microporus paper. If you use a swellable
polymer paper like Kodak, your ink will run. If you use plain paper
envelopes, your ink will run.

It's a matter of the combination of the paper and the in.

Jim
 
measekite said:
The conversation below certainly implies a lack of knowledge about the
printer market. Beginning with the Epson R800, 1800, 2400 etc the
printers all use pigmented ink.
Click to expand...

Notice that I said a SATISFACTORY way to use pigmented inks. I know
about Epson's Durabrite inks. I've also read in this newsgroup about
frequent clogs with the Durabrite inks, forcing some users to switch
back to dye-based inks. I don't call frequent clogging satisfactory. And
don't try to tell me that the clogging was from using aftermarket ink -
Durabrite is an Epson OEM product.

TJ
 
On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:55:41 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"


More likely, you used a microporus paper. If you use a swellable
polymer paper like Kodak, your ink will run. If you use plain paper
envelopes, your ink will run.
Click to expand...

It is very unlikely that the OP used swellable or microporus paper - one
just simply does not print black text on this [expensive] photo paper.
If you print on plain paper and let the ink dry before running it under
water you will probably find the print to be very waterfast. I just
picked a piece out of my recycle bin that had been printed on my
Photosmart 2610 All-in-one and ran it under the faucet until the paper
was soaked through. Both the black and color remained stable, although
the color text became just a bit fuzzy but still readable.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging
 
The Farmer In The Dell
Notice that I said a SATISFACTORY way to use pigmented inks. I know
about Epson's Durabrite inks. I've also read in this newsgroup about
frequent clogs with the Durabrite inks, forcing some users to switch
back to dye-based inks. I don't call frequent clogging satisfactory.
And don't try to tell me that the clogging was from using aftermarket
ink - Durabrite is an Epson OEM product.

TJ
Click to expand...
 
More likely, you used a microporus paper. If you use a swellable
polymer paper like Kodak, your ink will run. If you use plain paper
envelopes, your ink will run.

It's a matter of the combination of the paper and the in.

Jim
Click to expand...
We aren't talking about photograph paper. It is
just plain standard inkjet paper.

To be specific it is GP Advantage Ink Jet Paper
(94 brilliance 24 pound) sold by Costco.

But you made me slightly, very slightly curious so
I will run a test on plain old multipurpose
laser/copy paper. Although I have never used copy
paper in my inkjets.
 
George said:
We aren't talking about photograph paper. It is just plain standard
inkjet paper.

To be specific it is GP Advantage Ink Jet Paper (94 brilliance 24 pound)
sold by Costco.

But you made me slightly, very slightly curious so I will run a test on
plain old multipurpose laser/copy paper. Although I have never used
copy paper in my inkjets.
Click to expand...

Office Max was offering a free ream of recycled copy paper in exchange
for an empty inkjet cartridge a while ago. I traded in some carts left
over from a printer I no longer use and picked up some. "Office Max
Maxbrite Premium Recycled Paper." 20 lb., 88 brightness. That's the
paper I used for the subject of the original post.

TJ
 
George said:
We aren't talking about photograph paper. It is just plain standard
inkjet paper.

To be specific it is GP Advantage Ink Jet Paper (94 brilliance 24 pound)
sold by Costco.

But you made me slightly, very slightly curious so I will run a test on
plain old multipurpose laser/copy paper. Although I have never used
copy paper in my inkjets.
Click to expand...

OK, here is the follow up test of black ink on
copy paper.

Both the HP970 (OEM ink)and the Canon iP4000
(alotofthings ink) produced decent text on
multipurpose/copy paper but the text was slightly
inferior to that produced on ink jet paper. No
surprise there.

Drops of water on the HP970 print caused no
smearing. Washing produced a little grayish color
in the water and lightly colored creases. Another
washing and no more color in the water and no
color of the creases.

Drops of water on the Canon print caused immediate
pinkish smearing of the text. Washing produced a
lot of pink color in the water but the pink smear
was mostly removed. More washing resulted in more
pink color and removal of the pink smear.

Note that each washing used about 2 cups of water
in a water in a bathroom sink.

Both prints when dry were very readable. The HP
print was lighter, the lines thinner but very
sharp. The Canon print was darker, the lines
broader and less sharp.

These prints (after washing) were definitely
inferior to those made on inkjet paper. Again,
no surprise.

The point is that even on lower quality paper the
ink (or a major portion of it) is water fast. If
water drops cause smearing so you can't read it,
add more water and you should be able to read it
if the ink is pigmented.

The surprise was that the alotofthings pigmented
black ink smeared with water drops; probably
because there is some some dye black in it, but it
is mostly pigment.
 
TJ said:
Office Max was offering a free ream of recycled copy paper in exchange
for an empty inkjet cartridge a while ago. I traded in some carts left
over from a printer I no longer use and picked up some. "Office Max
Maxbrite Premium Recycled Paper." 20 lb., 88 brightness. That's the
paper I used for the subject of the original post.

TJ
Click to expand...

That sounds like rather low quality (bottom of the
barrel?) paper which pretty much knock in the head
the idea that it takes specific papers to make ink
jet pigmented black water fast.
 
They have.
Both Epson and HP have inkjet printers which use pigment colorant inks.

Epson has several series:

The C and CX printers and all in one - these are inexpensive 4 color
printers using Durabrite/Durabrite Ultra inks. The inks are fast drying
and waterproof and pretty much fadeproof on drying.

Their limitation is they tend to clog the head and require extra
maintenance.

The Ultrachrome inks come in several versions:

The 2100/2200/2400 and beyond: using ultrachrome and Ultrachrome K3
(three levels of black ink). These use a slower drying pigment colorant
ink and have very low risk of clogging.

The high gloss Ultrachrome inks (R800 and R1800). These have similar
characteristics but the inks are designed to impart a very glossy
surface on glossy papers. They also use red and blue inks in the ink set.

Epson has another new inkset called Claria, which I am unsure of the
chemistry as of yet, it may be dye or pigment, They claim it have good
fade resistance, but we'll see.

HP has a new pigment inkset for some of their new printers, plus a dye
set (Vivera) which they claim long fade resistance if used with certain
paper surfaces.

Art
 
I neglected to mention that Canon also has a pigment inkset printer that
was recently released. Yet to hear much about it.

Art
 
George said:
TJ wrote:

That sounds like rather low quality (bottom of the barrel?) paper which
pretty much knock in the head the idea that it takes specific papers to
make ink jet pigmented black water fast.
Click to expand...

Considering the application, namely a temporary sign on an outdoor farm
stand, low quality paper obtained for free exchange of something I was
going to throw away anyway seemed like the logical choice. I expected
the signs to become soiled or damaged long before this, so why use top
quality materials? That they still look good says that perhaps the
quality wasn't as low as I thought.

I use inputs that are adequate for the application at hand. When an
application calls for higher quality inputs, I use them, but when it
doesn't, I don't. That is one of the ways I keep my livelihood on a
sound economic footing.

TJ
 
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