Access Old HD with BIOS LBA or Large?

[Rod Speed]

Hi Group,

Lo Goupie, Groper ?

I have this 10 year old Maxtor 546MB 7546AT IDE drive (from the
pre-Win95 era) that I would like to access / ghost. Unfortunately
I no longer have the system to which this drive was connected.

The problem is that I don't remember how I setup this drive in the system
BIOS. (Large or LBA, although I *think* it was Large in the BIOS).

Its best to use the AUTO drive type initially and see if you can
see the contents of the drive, dont write to the drive at all until
you are sure that you can see the contents properly.

To further make matters more complex
this drive was compressed using stacker.
Urk.

I plan to hook the drive up and boot from a CD and then ghosting it.

This is so I avoid booting from the drive itself
and corrupting it in case something goes wrong.

Will I damage the drive if I select the wrong translation method?

Only if you actually write to it.

How can I tell what were the BIOS settings used for a drive?

It isnt easy, particularly if some wrong numbers were used for the CHS
values. That can easily happen with a drive that size, some chose to set
it them up for a 512MB size, when used on systems which didnt have
LBA support, and lose the small extra space for simplicity.

One approach is to try the obvious possibilitys and see which one
makes the drive contents visible. Not trivial tho with stacker used.

One of the diagnostic utes can suggest what values were used.

What about newer systems that don't give you the choice for "Large"?

Just use AUTO and see if its visible.

What's the best way to access/ghost this drive without screwing it up?

One of the systems that copy at the sector level is safer than ghost.

Anybody remember anything about Stacker for Dos (I think it was v3.1)?

Just the name, basically. There's bound to be something with google tho.

Squeeky.

Watch out for The Cat.

 

[Eric Gisin]

AFIAK, booting a DOS 5/6 floppy will never damage the hard drives. If you
boot the HD, you get an error from the MBR or FAT boot sector if the geometry
is wrong.

Dunno if Ghost will accept incorrect geometry. I would boot from floppy, run
Svend's findpart, then "scandisk /checkonly". www.partitionsupport.com -
findpart.

If stacker is like drivespace, you will see a FAT16 volume with a compressed
image file. You need to examine config.sys to see how it loads.

 

[Folkert Rienstra]

Use auto.
Do a Findpart or Partinfo.
Show results and try not to break them when posting.
Remember, try not to break the report when posting.

Hi Group,

I have this 10 year old Maxtor 546MB 7546AT IDE drive (from the
pre-Win95 era) that I would like to access / ghost. Unfortunately I no
longer have the system to which this drive was connected.

The problem is that I don't remember how I setup this drive in the sys-
tem BIOS. (Large or LBA, although I *think* it was Large in the BIOS).

546MB? Try 'Normal'.

 

[BLANK]

Hi Group,

I have this 10 year old Maxtor 546MB 7546AT IDE drive (from the
pre-Win95 era) that I would like to access / ghost. Unfortunately I no
longer have the system to which this drive was connected.

The problem is that I don't remember how I setup this drive in the
system BIOS. (Large or LBA, although I *think* it was Large in the
BIOS).

To further make matters more complex this drive was compressed using
stacker.

I plan to hook the drive up and boot from a CD and then ghosting it.

This is so I avoid booting from the drive itself and corrupting it in
case something goes wrong.

Will I damage the drive if I select the wrong translation method?
How can I tell what were the BIOS settings used for a drive?
What about newer systems that don't give you the choice for "Large"?

What's the best way to access/ghost this drive without screwing it up?

Anybody remember anything about Stacker for Dos (I think it was v3.1)?

Squeeky.

 

[Rod Speed]

AFIAK, booting a DOS 5/6 floppy will never damage the hard drives.

Just as true of booting one of the universal boot CDs etc too.

If you boot the HD, you get an error from the MBR
or FAT boot sector if the geometry is wrong.
Wrong.

Dunno if Ghost will accept incorrect geometry. I would boot from floppy, run
Svend's findpart, then "scandisk /checkonly". www.partitionsupport.com -
findpart.

If stacker is like drivespace,

It isnt.

you will see a FAT16 volume with a compressed image
file. You need to examine config.sys to see how it loads.

You dont even know its bootable.

 

[Alan]

Hi Group,

I have this 10 year old Maxtor 546MB 7546AT IDE drive (from the
pre-Win95 era) that I would like to access / ghost. Unfortunately I no
longer have the system to which this drive was connected.
....
Anybody remember anything about Stacker for Dos (I think it was v3.1)?

Squeeky.

With the Stacker driver loaded, you can access the compressed files.
Otherwise, you see just one big volume file.

From <http://www.drdos.com/dosdoc/usergeng/12ugch12.htm>:

An unmounted Stacker drive contains the following files only:
STACVOL.DSK, the file containing the compressed data
STACKER.EXE, the program that mounts the Stacker drive
README.STC, which identifies this drive as a Stacker drive and tells
you to run STACKER on it

To make the compressed drive available on a non-Stacker computer,
simply run STACKER by typing the following at the system prompt, where
d is the drive letter of the compressed drive:
STACKER d: <Enter>

UNSTACK removes all the files from the compressed drive, decompresses
them, places them back on the uncompressed drive it created when you
originally compressed the drive, and deletes the STACVOL file.

~~~
If the "stacker.exe" file isn't there, Stacker is included with DRDOS,
you can download it (included in DRDOS) from
<http://public.planetmirror.com/pub/drdos/DR-DOS.703/>
Use that to make a DRDOS boot floppy, load Stacker, read and copy the
drive files. You could extract stacker.exe from the image files with
WinImage, maybe it'll run under MSDOS.

 

[Zvi Netiv]

I have this 10 year old Maxtor 546MB 7546AT IDE drive (from the
pre-Win95 era) that I would like to access / ghost. Unfortunately I no
longer have the system to which this drive was connected.

Was it the boot drive, or slaved? If boot, then the drive will wake up on its
own when setup with the proper geometry.

The problem is that I don't remember how I setup this drive in the
system BIOS. (Large or LBA, although I *think* it was Large in the
BIOS).

There should be no problem trying all settings of the BIOS, normal / large / LBA
with the drive set as auto. Just boot of a floppy and look in the hard drives
root directory with the command DIR C:\ /AH (what you are looking for has the
hidden attribute set) and see if there is a large file named STACKVOL.DSK. If
there is one, then you just found the compressed volume file and you know that
the BIOS settings are correct. Start now the drive from its own system and the
"stacked" volume should mount automatically.

To further make matters more complex this drive was compressed using
stacker.

I plan to hook the drive up and boot from a CD and then ghosting it.
Pointless.

This is so I avoid booting from the drive itself and corrupting it in
case something goes wrong.

A clone prepared with the wrong geometry won't be worth the time and effort.

Will I damage the drive if I select the wrong translation method?

No, on condition that you don't write anything to the drive. A DEL command, or
even an OS piping (may occur with booting of CD!) may corrupt your root
directory and kiss then your data goodbye.

How can I tell what were the BIOS settings used for a drive?

Explained above.

What about newer systems that don't give you the choice for "Large"?

They may be unfit for the job. You need a machine where you can select between
normal / large / LBA, and set the IDE mode from 0,1,2,3,4 and auto. Some of
those early IDE require a lower mode than the later ones.

What's the best way to access/ghost this drive without screwing it up?

The best way is to keep Ghost and the drive apart. About one mile will do.

Anybody remember anything about Stacker for Dos (I think it was v3.1)?

Apparently many do. ;-)

Regards, Zvi

 

[Rod Speed]

Was it the boot drive, or slaved? If boot, then the drive will
wake up on its own when setup with the proper geometry.

Thats just plain wrong.

There should be no problem trying all settings of the
BIOS, normal / large / LBA with the drive set as auto.

Utterly mangled. Its either set to auto or to one of the other settings.

Just boot of a floppy and look in the hard drives root directory with
the command DIR C:\ /AH (what you are looking for has the hidden
attribute set) and see if there is a large file named STACKVOL.DSK.
If there is one, then you just found the compressed volume file and
you know that the BIOS settings are correct.

No you dont with just a couple of files visible in the root.

Start now the drive from its own system and
the "stacked" volume should mount automatically.

Wrong again if its not a bootable drive.

Pointless.

Nope. Ghosting it allows graceful recovery if the drive type setting
is set wrong and the drive is written to with the wrong settings.

A clone prepared with the wrong geometry won't be worth the time and effort.
Wrong.

No, on condition that you don't write anything to the drive. A DEL
command, or even an OS piping (may occur with booting of CD!)
may corrupt your root directory and kiss then your data goodbye.

Explained above.

Fraid not.

They may be unfit for the job. You need a machine
where you can select between normal / large / LBA,
and set the IDE mode from 0,1,2,3,4 and auto.
Nope.

Some of those early IDE require a lower mode than the later ones.

Should negotiate the lower settings fine.

 

[Folkert Rienstra]

Just as true of booting one of the universal boot CDs etc too.


Wrong.

Nope, totally correct.

It isnt.


You dont even know its bootable.

"This is so I avoid booting from the drive itself ..."

 

[Rod Speed]

Nope, totally correct.
Wrong.

"This is so I avoid booting from the drive itself ..."

Doesnt mean its actually bootable.

 

[Peter]

Hi Group,

I have this 10 year old Maxtor 546MB 7546AT IDE drive (from the
pre-Win95 era) that I would like to access / ghost. Unfortunately I no
longer have the system to which this drive was connected.

The problem is that I don't remember how I setup this drive in the
system BIOS. (Large or LBA, although I *think* it was Large in the
BIOS).

To further make matters more complex this drive was compressed using
stacker.

I plan to hook the drive up and boot from a CD and then ghosting it.

This is so I avoid booting from the drive itself and corrupting it in
case something goes wrong.

Will I damage the drive if I select the wrong translation method?
How can I tell what were the BIOS settings used for a drive?
What about newer systems that don't give you the choice for "Large"?

What's the best way to access/ghost this drive without screwing it up?

Anybody remember anything about Stacker for Dos (I think it was v3.1)?

Squeeky.

Try to setup CHS 1024/16/63 in bios, then boot.
If not, CHS 1060/16/63 (native) might work.

 

[Rod Speed]

Try to setup CHS 1024/16/63 in bios, then boot.

Not a good idea to boot.

If not, CHS 1060/16/63 (native) might work.

Very unlikely indeed.

 

[Eric Gisin]

Wrong.

Bullshit Rodney.You don' have a ****ing clue how the boot code works.

 

[Rod Speed]

Bullshit Rodney.You don' have a ****ing clue how the boot code works.

You're wrong with the most general claim. There are plenty of geometry
errors that wont effect the boot. And it aint even possible to 'get an error
from the MBR or FAT boot sector' you pathetic excuse for a bullshit artist.

 

[Zvi Netiv]

Thats just plain wrong.

Instead of arguing, why don't you simply watch silently and learn? I did this
more than once, with Stacker, DriveSpace, DoubleSpace and SuperStor. They all
are dynamic drive compressions that were used at one stage or another, and
function on the same principles as Stacker.

Utterly mangled. Its either set to auto or to one of the other settings.

You are confusing things. The one to set to auto in the BIOS is the drive
'type'. The other parameter was called 'mode' in older BIOSes, and just a plain
"LBA / LARGE" caption in the newer ones. Both type and mode have an 'auto'
state in their setting, often referred to as auto/auto by some of the better
informed regulars in this group.

No you dont with just a couple of files visible in the root.

Learn something new: You will see nonsensical data for root if the geometry is
wrong (in result of incorrect translation parameters). When the directory shows
correctly, then you know that you hit the correct settings. Besides, who was
talking about "just three files"? All that I said is that if you can see the
CVF in the root directory then you are on the correct settings. Nowhere do I
say that you should see no other files, "just" the CVF.

Wrong again if its not a bootable drive.

Every reasonable reader understands that the drive will mount automatically only
if it is was a boot drive, and so far, the OP didn't contradict that assumption.

Nope. Ghosting it allows graceful recovery if the drive type setting
is set wrong and the drive is written to with the wrong settings.

With all due respect, you have no clue on what you are talking about. Writing
to the drive with the wrong settings (which is extremely difficult, but Ghost is
definitely capable of doing it) will dramatically lessen the chances to mount
the Stacker volume. Ghosting the drive with these settings will produce a
worthless clone. To produce a clone that is worth its salt, you need first
finding the correct drive settings in the BIOS (i.e. the CVF should be visible
and *intact*), and then clone with Ghost or whatever you like, with the correct
drive settings. Yet if you already found the correct settings, then you may
mount the compressed drive from its own disk, or from external booting (with the
Stacker driver on floppy) and backup what you need.

Wrong.

See above.

Nope.

You obviously have no clue.

Should negotiate the lower settings fine.

From experience, older drives don't negotiate the PIO mode properly and you may
have to set it manually, through trial and error. Otherwise why would BIOSes
still have manual PIO settings in their options?

Regards, Zvi

 

[Rod Speed]

Instead of arguing, why don't you simply watch silently and learn?

Even you should be able to bullshit your way out of
your predicament better than that pathetic effort, Netiv

I did this more than once, with Stacker,
DriveSpace, DoubleSpace and SuperStor.

Easy to claim, Netiv.

They all are dynamic drive compressions
that were used at one stage or another,
Duh.

and function on the same principles as Stacker.

Separate issue entirely to that claim you made.

You are confusing things.

Nope, you are. Mangling in fact.

The one to set to auto in the BIOS is the drive 'type'.
The other parameter was called 'mode' in older BIOSes,
and just a plain "LBA / LARGE" caption in the newer ones.

Utterly mangled all over again. There are
no separate settings with modern bios.

Both type and mode have an 'auto' state in their setting,

Only in the older bios.

often referred to as auto/auto by some of
the better informed regulars in this group.

Only in the older bois.

Learn something new: You will see nonsensical data for root if the
geometry is wrong (in result of incorrect translation parameters).

Not necessarily, depends on the detail in which the geometry is wrong.

If the number of tracks is wrong, say half what it should
be, the root of the initial partition will still look fine.

When the directory shows correctly, then
you know that you hit the correct settings.

Not necessarily, see above.

Besides, who was talking about "just three files"?

Thats what is likely all that is in the root of that particular
drive when its used as a non boot drive, stupid.

All that I said is that if you can see the CVF in the root
directory then you are on the correct settings. Nowhere
do I say that you should see no other files, "just" the CVF.

Never ever said you did.

Every reasonable reader understands that the drive
will mount automatically only if it is was a boot drive,

Even you should be able to bullshit your way out of
your predicament better than that pathetic effort, Netiv

and so far, the OP didn't contradict that assumption.

Pathetic, really.

With all due respect, you have no clue on what you are talking about.

Even you should be able to bullshit your way out of
your predicament better than that pathetic effort, Netiv

Writing to the drive with the wrong settings (which is extremely difficult,

Not a ****ing clue, as always.

but Ghost is definitely capable of doing it) will dramatically
lessen the chances to mount the Stacker volume.

Separate issue entirely to your stupid 'pointless' claim.

Ghosting the drive with these settings will produce a worthless clone.

Depends entirely on how ghost is used, you pathetic excuse for a bullshit
artist.

To produce a clone that is worth its salt, you need first
finding the correct drive settings in the BIOS (i.e. the
CVF should be visible and *intact*), and then clone with
Ghost or whatever you like, with the correct drive settings.

Pity I was clearly commenting on your POINTLESS
claim, you pathetic excuse for a bullshit artist.

Yet if you already found the correct settings, then you may mount
the compressed drive from its own disk, or from external booting
(with the Stacker driver on floppy) and backup what you need.

Pity I was clearly commenting on your POINTLESS
claim, you pathetic excuse for a bullshit artist.

See above.

Completely useless, as always with your steaming turds.

You obviously have no clue.

Even you should be able to bullshit your way out of
your predicament better than that pathetic effort, Netiv

From experience, older drives don't negotiate the PIO mode properly
and you may have to set it manually, through trial and error.

Hardly ever in fact. And a separate issue to your stupid claim.

Otherwise why would BIOSes still have manual PIO settings in their options?

Pathetic, really.

 

[Folkert Rienstra]

You're wrong with the most general claim.

There are plenty of geometry errors that wont effect the boot.

That a bit difficult when geometry errors only affect boot.
As the OS is situated after the first cylinder any false geometry
will only affect the pre-OS boot (any that is using CHS Int13).

And it aint even possible to 'get an error from the MBR or FAT boot sector'

Wrong again:

"Invalid partition table"
"Error loading operating system"
"Missing operating system"

"Invalid system disk"
"Disk I/O error"
"Replace the disk, and then press any key"

you pathetic excuse for a bullshit artist.

Been looking in the mirror too long again, Rodney?

 

[Rod Speed]

That a bit difficult when geometry errors only affect boot.

Even a silly little pseudokraut should be able to manage
a more viable troll than that pathetic effort, child.

As the OS is situated after the first cylinder any false geometry
will only affect the pre-OS boot (any that is using CHS Int13).

Even a silly little pseudokraut should be able to manage
a more viable troll than that pathetic effort, child.

Wrong again:

"Invalid partition table"
"Error loading operating system"
"Missing operating system"

"Invalid system disk"
"Disk I/O error"
"Replace the disk, and then press any key"

None of those are from the MBR or FAT
boot sector, they're all from the bios.

Been looking in the mirror too long again, Rodney?

Even a silly little pseudokraut should be able to manage
a more viable troll than that pathetic effort, child.

 

[Eric Gisin]

Even a silly little pseudokraut should be able to manage
a more viable troll than that pathetic effort, child.


Even a silly little pseudokraut should be able to manage
a more viable troll than that pathetic effort, child.
sector'



None of those are from the MBR or FAT
boot sector, they're all from the bios.

The first three are NOT. Ever used a disk editor, Ron?

MBR...
120 32 e4 8a 56 00 cd 13 eb d6 61 f9 c3 49 6e 76 61 2 V a Inva
130 6c 69 64 20 70 61 72 74 69 74 69 6f 6e 20 74 61 lid partition ta
140 62 6c 65 00 45 72 72 6f 72 20 6c 6f 61 64 69 6e ble Error loadin
150 67 20 6f 70 65 72 61 74 69 6e 67 20 73 79 73 74 g operating syst
160 65 6d 00 4d 69 73 73 69 6e 67 20 6f 70 65 72 61 em Missing opera
170 74 69 6e 67 20 73 79 73 74 65 6d 00 00 00 00 00 ting system

FAT16...
1a0 b0 4e 54 4c 44 52 20 20 20 20 20 20 0d 0a 4e 54 NTLDR NT
1b0 4c 44 52 20 69 73 20 6d 69 73 73 69 6e 67 ff 0d LDR is missing
1c0 0a 44 69 73 6b 20 65 72 72 6f 72 ff 0d 0a 50 72 Disk error Pr
1d0 65 73 73 20 61 6e 79 20 6b 65 79 20 74 6f 20 72 ess any key to r
1e0 65 73 74 61 72 74 0d 0a 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 estart
1f0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ac bf cc 55 aa U

NTFS...
180 eb f2 c3 0d 0a 41 20 64 69 73 6b 20 72 65 61 64 A disk read
190 20 65 72 72 6f 72 20 6f 63 63 75 72 72 65 64 00 error occurred
1a0 0d 0a 4e 54 4c 44 52 20 69 73 20 6d 69 73 73 69 NTLDR is missi
1b0 6e 67 00 0d 0a 4e 54 4c 44 52 20 69 73 20 63 6f ng NTLDR is co
1c0 6d 70 72 65 73 73 65 64 00 0d 0a 50 72 65 73 73 mpressed Press
1d0 20 43 74 72 6c 2b 41 6c 74 2b 44 65 6c 20 74 6f Ctrl+Alt+Del to
1e0 20 72 65 73 74 61 72 74 0d 0a 00 00 00 00 00 00 restart
1f0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 83 a0 b3 c9 00 00 55 aa U

 

[Rod Speed]

The first three are NOT.

Fraid so.

Ever used a disk editor, Ron?

Yep, long before you ever did thanks, child.

MBR...
120 32 e4 8a 56 00 cd 13 eb d6 61 f9 c3 49 6e 76 61 2 V a Inva
130 6c 69 64 20 70 61 72 74 69 74 69 6f 6e 20 74 61 lid partition ta
140 62 6c 65 00 45 72 72 6f 72 20 6c 6f 61 64 69 6e ble Error loadin
150 67 20 6f 70 65 72 61 74 69 6e 67 20 73 79 73 74 g operating syst
160 65 6d 00 4d 69 73 73 69 6e 67 20 6f 70 65 72 61 em Missing opera
170 74 69 6e 67 20 73 79 73 74 65 6d 00 00 00 00 00 ting system

FAT16...
1a0 b0 4e 54 4c 44 52 20 20 20 20 20 20 0d 0a 4e 54 NTLDR NT
1b0 4c 44 52 20 69 73 20 6d 69 73 73 69 6e 67 ff 0d LDR is missing
1c0 0a 44 69 73 6b 20 65 72 72 6f 72 ff 0d 0a 50 72 Disk error Pr
1d0 65 73 73 20 61 6e 79 20 6b 65 79 20 74 6f 20 72 ess any key to r
1e0 65 73 74 61 72 74 0d 0a 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 estart
1f0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ac bf cc 55 aa U

NTFS...
180 eb f2 c3 0d 0a 41 20 64 69 73 6b 20 72 65 61 64 A disk read
190 20 65 72 72 6f 72 20 6f 63 63 75 72 72 65 64 00 error occurred
1a0 0d 0a 4e 54 4c 44 52 20 69 73 20 6d 69 73 73 69 NTLDR is missi
1b0 6e 67 00 0d 0a 4e 54 4c 44 52 20 69 73 20 63 6f ng NTLDR is co
1c0 6d 70 72 65 73 73 65 64 00 0d 0a 50 72 65 73 73 mpressed Press
1d0 20 43 74 72 6c 2b 41 6c 74 2b 44 65 6c 20 74 6f Ctrl+Alt+Del to
1e0 20 72 65 73 74 61 72 74 0d 0a 00 00 00 00 00 00 restart
1f0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 83 a0 b3 c9 00 00 55 aa U

Soorree, the bios has to execute the code in the sector
before the text gets anywhere near the user, ****wit.

AND you wont necessarily get those error
messages with some geometry errors anyway.

Keep desperately digging, child. You'll be out in china any day now.