A7N8X, A7N8X-X, A7N8X-E, etc

  • Thread starter Thread starter KWW
  • Start date Start date
K

KWW

I am looking to upgrade my son's PC before he goes off to college, so I
figure I had better make sure his system is solid and reliable (no refurb
parts this time). I have fairly well settled on the A7N8X line (vs the
A7V8X) based upon things I have heard in general. What is the difference in
the various boards (other than the obvious features listed) --- in other
words, is one board much better than another stability - wise, etc.

Not planning a screamer-system. He never gets into much in the way of
games, basically an AMD 2600XP+ 512k, 512M DDR 333, Not sure but maybe
Chaintech A-FX20 (GeForce FX5200 with 128MB DDR, 64 bit)

Already paying for 1 in college (1/2 way through), this will be the 2nd
child in college. Obviously economy, stability (but
upgradability/flexibility) are considerations.
TIA
 
KWW said:
I am looking to upgrade my son's PC before he goes off to college, so I
figure I had better make sure his system is solid and reliable (no refurb
parts this time). I have fairly well settled on the A7N8X line (vs the
A7V8X) based upon things I have heard in general. What is the difference in
the various boards (other than the obvious features listed) --- in other
words, is one board much better than another stability - wise, etc.

Not planning a screamer-system. He never gets into much in the way of
games, basically an AMD 2600XP+ 512k, 512M DDR 333, Not sure but maybe
Chaintech A-FX20 (GeForce FX5200 with 128MB DDR, 64 bit)

Already paying for 1 in college (1/2 way through), this will be the 2nd
child in college. Obviously economy, stability (but
upgradability/flexibility) are considerations.
TIA
Click to expand...
You don't mention storage devices, but assuming you don't need RAID and
other extras, the economy model will do fine. That would be the A7N8X-X.
You don't get dual channel, but the performance improvement is negligible
anyway, and would require two memory modules.
I have both an A7N8X-X and an A7N8X Deluxe here and cannot tell the
difference in daily use. I use the SATA RAID on the Deluxe. For college
*work*, the FX5200 should be fine.
 
Thanks. They have so many variations, and, while I could delve into the
details of the chipsets, etc... I have been way too busy of late to sift
through the nuances and pick the best one...

One other thing, I was looking at the A7N8X-VM/400 and comparing it with the
A7N8X-X. Granted, I was tired, but, aside from the video on the "VM", they
appeared to be comparable. I was wondering if it would be a bad idea to be
cheap until late in the summer and (maybe) trying the VM, then updating the
video card before school in the fall.... unless there are other aspects of
the Nvida chipset in the "VM" boards that is inferior...
Thoughts?
 
KWW said:
Thanks. They have so many variations, and, while I could delve into the
details of the chipsets, etc... I have been way too busy of late to sift
through the nuances and pick the best one...

One other thing, I was looking at the A7N8X-VM/400 and comparing it with the
A7N8X-X. Granted, I was tired, but, aside from the video on the "VM", they
appeared to be comparable. I was wondering if it would be a bad idea to be
cheap until late in the summer and (maybe) trying the VM, then updating the
video card before school in the fall.... unless there are other aspects of
the Nvida chipset in the "VM" boards that is inferior...
Thoughts?
Click to expand...
I hope somebody else jumps in, 'cause I don't know a thing about the
integrated video models. Sorry.
 
"KWW" said:
Thanks. They have so many variations, and, while I could delve into the
details of the chipsets, etc... I have been way too busy of late to sift
through the nuances and pick the best one...

One other thing, I was looking at the A7N8X-VM/400 and comparing it with the
A7N8X-X. Granted, I was tired, but, aside from the video on the "VM", they
appeared to be comparable. I was wondering if it would be a bad idea to be
cheap until late in the summer and (maybe) trying the VM, then updating the
video card before school in the fall.... unless there are other aspects of
the Nvida chipset in the "VM" boards that is inferior...
Thoughts?
Click to expand...

The -VM boards don't have a lot of adjustments, so if there is
a problem with something, you cannot adjust anything to try to
fix it. Now, one problem right now with the -VM/400, is built-in
video corruption when a user puts PC3200 memory in it. The BIOS
on the -VM only understands how to set the memory according to
the SPD chip on the DIMM, so you cannot convince the BIOS to
use a DDR333 setting rather than DDR400. There are two solutions
to this - one is to buy PC2700 memory, where the SPD is programmed
with a top speed of DDR333, and the second is to buy an AGP
video card, to take the place of the built-in video. To me,
this negates the built-in video on this board, if it cannot
be trusted under all conditions you are likely to encounter.
I like to buy a board, where there is a reasonable chance that
the components can be reused, and PC3200 memory is worth more
to me than PC2700 would be.

(You could buy the -VM, do your build, if video is a problem,
buy the FX5200. Only if the price difference is important, and
you have time to experiment.)

Here are some links to various things you should investigate:

******
This link will list the CPU types supported by a given model.

http://www.asus.it/support/cpusupport/cpusupport.aspx

There are many processor listings on the web, but I like
this one for the colorful table. This will give you some
ideas as to what you can buy. It lists FSB speed, and for
best performance in this case, FSB and memory should be
run at the same speed (FSB333 and DDR333, FSB400 and DDR400).

http://www.qdi.nl/support/CPUQDISocketA.htm

Always download the manual from the download page. Read
through the section with the BIOS screens depicted. This
will show you what parts of the computer can be adjusted,
like AGP speed, Vcore, Vagp, Vdimm voltages, and so on.
Compare the virtually unadjustable -VM to the other boards.
(I like to look at "Advanced Chipset Features", used to
adjust CPU clock and memory timings.)

http://www.asus.it/support/download/download.aspx
http://www.asus.it/support/download/item.aspx?ModelName=A7N8X-X&Type=All
http://www.asuscom.de/pub/ASUS/mb/socka/nforce2/a7n8x-x/e1461_a7n8x-x.pdf

You should also inspect all the product web pages, for any hints
at limitations of the product. The DDR400 memory table in the
last link is sadly out of date, because Winbond BH-5 memory is
no longer being manufactured. Better to check Google or a
private forum, with your prospective memory choice, to see
if there will be problems.

http://usa.asus.com/products/mb/mbindex.htm (main listing)
http://usa.asus.com/products/mb/socketa/a7n8x-x/overview.htm
http://usa.asus.com/prog/spec.asp?m=A7N8X-X&langs=09
******

The motherboard has built-in sound, and you may want to test
it, to see if it is noise free enough for listening to music.
If you get noise, try disconnecting the analog CDROM cable,
and select digital audio extraction to get sound from the CD.
A cheap sound card sometimes has more options than a low
end AC-97 motherboard solution (like bass and treble controls).

For video cards, an Nvidia FX5200 or an ATI 9000 can give
good non-game performance, and in some cases, are fanless
for less noise. You can enter a price range on this
page, and see what "pops up"

http://www.newegg.com/app/manufactory.asp?catalog=48&DEPA=0

or go to this page:

http://www.pricewatch.com/menus/m37.htm

To help keep the model numbers straight, look at this
article, and pick one of the many color charts, to see
how the model numbering scheme is a poor indicator of
performance. To further complicate matters, video cards
can have the memory arranged as a 64 bit wide array or
a 128 bit wide array, and it can be hard to tell whether
you are getting a "bargain" or not. (I.e. Two cards
can have the same base model number, but they may not
have the same arrangement for the memory.) Judging by
the Newegg page, there is a tremendous price spread
for cards with the same "model number".

http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic/20031229/index.html

On the Newegg web pages, there is generally a "Review" link
on the page of a product, and sometimes these reviews warn
of video cards that fail early in their lives. If the card
you find on Pricewatch happens to be sold on a Newegg page,
have a look through the reviews, to see if any users have
had problems.

Have fun,
Paul
 
Wow... very impressive response... thanks! I do often use pricewatch .. and
Newegg is my preferred place of purchase - but the specific links cited are
quite helpful! I had forgotten about the video data path width issue - it
has been quite a while since I read about that - thanks!

Much food for thought, that is for certain. The word on the VM/400 board
convinced me... I can do without that! I will "simply" have to compare the
other various boards to see what foots the bill.
Thanks!
 
KWW said:
I am looking to upgrade my son's PC before he goes off to college, so I
figure I had better make sure his system is solid and reliable (no refurb
parts this time). I have fairly well settled on the A7N8X line (vs the
A7V8X) based upon things I have heard in general. What is the difference
in the various boards (other than the obvious features listed) --- in
other words, is one board much better than another stability - wise, etc.
Click to expand...

Should all be pretty similar. The only ones to avoid were the 1.04revisions
of the original A7N8X and Deluxe, you won't find one now, they'll all be
Rev2.0.

The Deluxe has all the bells and whistles, which, you are unlikely to need.
I'm not sure, but I would recomend the normal A7N8X. The -X has a different
BIOS as far as I know, so can't comment on it's stability, but I do prefer
the Award BIOS on the normal X and Deluxe.
Not planning a screamer-system. He never gets into much in the way of
games, basically an AMD 2600XP+ 512k, 512M DDR 333, Not sure but maybe
Chaintech A-FX20 (GeForce FX5200 with 128MB DDR, 64 bit)
Click to expand...

Well that will do it. I'd go for a Barton rather than a T'Bred, although
there isn;t that much in it.
Already paying for 1 in college (1/2 way through), this will be the 2nd
child in college. Obviously economy, stability (but
upgradability/flexibility) are considerations.
Click to expand...

In terms of upgradability you're standing up against a wall... Socket A is a
dying breed, but support should be around for some time. I very much doubt
there will be any chips much faster than the 3200+. I wouldn't expect
prices to shift that much now, either.

If you want upgradability then the new socket 939 is going to be the way
forward, but that probably contradicts the budget aspect.

I personally have an A7N8X Deluxe with a Barton 2500+ and am very happy with
it.

Ben
 
Thanks. They have so many variations, and, while I could delve into the
details of the chipsets, etc... I have been way too busy of late to sift
through the nuances and pick the best one...

One other thing, I was looking at the A7N8X-VM/400 and comparing it with
the A7N8X-X. Granted, I was tired, but, aside from the video on the "VM",
they appeared to be comparable. I was wondering if it would be a bad idea
to be cheap until late in the summer and (maybe) trying the VM, then
updating the video card before school in the fall.... unless there are
other aspects of the Nvida chipset in the "VM" boards that is inferior...
Click to expand...
[snip]

Paul has already mentioned some issues specific to that board/chipset, but in
more general terms... I dislike on-board video on general principles, and
your scenario is one good example of why:

I think this would be a penny-wise/pound-foolish move. You'd be paying extra
for the A7N8X-VM/400, as compared to the "base" A7N8X; then in a very few
months, you'd go ahead and buy a separate video card anyway, obviating your
"savings" and then some. Unless you're counting on the cost of the video card
to drop markedly in that time period, it would be a net loss; and given the
fact that (due to the low priority of whiz-bang games) you presumably wouldn't
be using a "bleeding edge" video card in any case, that's not a realistic
expectation.

--

Jay T. Blocksom
--------------------------------
Appropriate Technology, Inc.
usenet01[at]appropriate-tech.net


"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

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Unsolicited advertising sent to this E-Mail address is expressly prohibited
under USC Title 47, Section 227. Violators are subject to charge of up to
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Thanks folks! I bit the bullet and went for the A7N8X-E. I figured that in
the next few years my son may end up wanting to upgrade to SATA. It wasn't
that much more, and, coupled with the video card I got and the other
components, should result in a respectable and stable system.

Now to convince him to let me upgrade from Win98 SE..... he doesn't like
change and feels that the new OSs are buggy and stuff. (Wish I could find
reasonable W2000 Pro like I have. I belive it is better than XP simply
because it tries to do less, but that is another story.)

--
KWW

Jay T. Blocksom said:
Thanks. They have so many variations, and, while I could delve into the
details of the chipsets, etc... I have been way too busy of late to sift
through the nuances and pick the best one...

One other thing, I was looking at the A7N8X-VM/400 and comparing it with
the A7N8X-X. Granted, I was tired, but, aside from the video on the "VM",
they appeared to be comparable. I was wondering if it would be a bad idea
to be cheap until late in the summer and (maybe) trying the VM, then
updating the video card before school in the fall.... unless there are
other aspects of the Nvida chipset in the "VM" boards that is
Click to expand...
inferior...
[snip]

Paul has already mentioned some issues specific to that board/chipset, but in
more general terms... I dislike on-board video on general principles, and
your scenario is one good example of why:

I think this would be a penny-wise/pound-foolish move. You'd be paying extra
for the A7N8X-VM/400, as compared to the "base" A7N8X; then in a very few
months, you'd go ahead and buy a separate video card anyway, obviating your
"savings" and then some. Unless you're counting on the cost of the video card
to drop markedly in that time period, it would be a net loss; and given the
fact that (due to the low priority of whiz-bang games) you presumably wouldn't
be using a "bleeding edge" video card in any case, that's not a realistic
expectation.

--

Jay T. Blocksom
--------------------------------
Appropriate Technology, Inc.
usenet01[at]appropriate-tech.net


"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Unsolicited advertising sent to this E-Mail address is expressly prohibited
under USC Title 47, Section 227. Violators are subject to charge of up to
$1,500 per incident or treble actual costs, whichever is greater.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Click to expand...
-
 
KWW said:
Thanks folks! I bit the bullet and went for the A7N8X-E. I figured that
in the next few years my son may end up wanting to upgrade to SATA. It
wasn't that much more, and, coupled with the video card I got and the
other components, should result in a respectable and stable system.
Click to expand...

Yep, thats probably the Socket A board I'd choose.
Now to convince him to let me upgrade from Win98 SE..... he doesn't like
change and feels that the new OSs are buggy and stuff. (Wish I could find
reasonable W2000 Pro like I have. I belive it is better than XP simply
because it tries to do less, but that is another story.)
Click to expand...

Win2K or XP are both considerably better than Win9x.

If you've ever had a crash on Win98 you know it takes the whole system with
it, with Win2K/XP, not usually so - all the other applications remain
working (along with the OS).

I did a fresh install of Win98 when I was having some problems with it. I
then proceeded to open several Word docs, several Excel docs, a few PDFs, a
few web pages so that I could continue to do my project... Windows fell
over. So I rebooted and tried again.... fell over again. After 3 tries,
each with the same result, I installed Win2K and have been relatively happy
ever since. The memory management and multi tasking abilities of Windows 98
is not very good and support is waning.

Ben
 
Ben Pope said:
Yep, thats probably the Socket A board I'd choose.


Win2K or XP are both considerably better than Win9x.

If you've ever had a crash on Win98 you know it takes the whole system with
it, with Win2K/XP, not usually so - all the other applications remain
working (along with the OS).

I did a fresh install of Win98 when I was having some problems with it. I
then proceeded to open several Word docs, several Excel docs, a few PDFs, a
few web pages so that I could continue to do my project... Windows fell
over. So I rebooted and tried again.... fell over again. After 3 tries,
each with the same result, I installed Win2K and have been relatively happy
ever since. The memory management and multi tasking abilities of Windows 98
is not very good and support is waning.

Ben
--
Click to expand...

I have most flavours of Windows (going back to Win 3.1), and XP is my main
preference - especially with a TFT monitor (ClearType font support).
 
[Posted & Mailed, due to the time-lag; f'up to NG]

Thanks folks! I bit the bullet and went for the A7N8X-E. I figured that
in the next few years my son may end up wanting to upgrade to SATA. It
wasn't that much more, and, coupled with the video card I got and the other
components, should result in a respectable and stable system.
Click to expand...
[snip]

Not *necessarily* the choice I would have made; but a good choice, based on
good reasoning, nonetheless. Congrats on dumping the onboard-video idea.
Now to convince him to let me upgrade from Win98 SE..... he doesn't like
change and feels that the new OSs are buggy and stuff.
Click to expand...
[snip]

He's at least partially right. Much depends on *exactly* which applications
you (or he) intend run, and what you/he will ultimately do with the system.
But with that caveat in place, note that far more important than which
"flavor" of Windows (i.e., DOS-based vs. NT-based) you use is that the
specific release be chosen carefully and that whatever you choose is properly
set up. Note that in this context, taking all the defaults and letting
Windows Setup make all the decisions is *far* from "properly set up".
(Wish I could find
reasonable W2000 Pro like I have.
Click to expand...
[snip]

Win2K can still be found in some retail channels, as well as on the grey
market.
I belive it is better than XP simply
because it tries to do less, but that is another story.)
Click to expand...

Indeed, you are correct -- and not only for that reason. Put simply, WinXP is
*evil*; but as you pointed out, that issue is sort'a OT here, so I'll leave it
at referring you to:

<http://www.hevanet.com/peace/microsoft.htm>
or <http://www.futurepower.net/microsoft.htm>

and (read all three):
<http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/03/14/11winman_1.html>
<http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/03/21/12winman_1.html>
<http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/03/28/13winman_1.html>

and finally:
<http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html>

If you want to go with an NT-based (as opposed to DOS-based) version of
Windows, then stick with Win2K/SP4; but be *SURE* to install it using
"2000lite", available here: <http://www.litepc.com/xplite.html>, so you can
tame some of its more egregious excesses (like MSIE, for example).

--

Jay T. Blocksom
--------------------------------
Appropriate Technology, Inc.
usenet01[at]appropriate-tech.net


"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Unsolicited advertising sent to this E-Mail address is expressly prohibited
under USC Title 47, Section 227. Violators are subject to charge of up to
$1,500 per incident or treble actual costs, whichever is greater.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 
[snip]

Win2K or XP are both considerably better than Win9x.
Click to expand...
[snip]

You are painting with *way* too wide a brush.
If you've ever had a crash on Win98 you know it takes the whole system with
it,
Click to expand...
[snip]

This simply isn't true, at least in the overly broad way you've stated it.
First, much depends on which application is crashing -- and more importantly,
*why* it is crashing. Even then, if the system is properly set up, there is
no reason for it to "take the whole system with it".
...with Win2K/XP, not usually so - all the other applications remain
working (along with the OS).
Click to expand...
[snip]

Sometimes. Sometimes not. And even when you do "get lucky", prudence still
demands that you immediately shut down the system and re-boot.
I did a fresh install of Win98 when I was having some problems with it. I
then proceeded to open several Word docs, several Excel docs, a few PDFs, a
few web pages so that I could continue to do my project... Windows fell
over. So I rebooted and tried again.... fell over again.
Click to expand...
[snip]

Unless there's something else you're not telling us, there simply *must* have
been something very wrong with that system (beyond the choice of OS), as it
was set up (or possibly with the documents you were attempting to use).
Thousands upon millions of people open MS-Word docs, Excel spreadsheets, PDF
files, etc., every day, day in, day out, using Win98 (or other forms of Win9x)
*without* the symptoms you describe. Hence, those symptoms *cannot* be
reasonably attributed to Win98.

--

Jay T. Blocksom
--------------------------------
Appropriate Technology, Inc.
usenet01[at]appropriate-tech.net


"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Unsolicited advertising sent to this E-Mail address is expressly prohibited
under USC Title 47, Section 227. Violators are subject to charge of up to
$1,500 per incident or treble actual costs, whichever is greater.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 
[REPOST: Apparently, the original copy of this article did not propagate.
Apologies if duplicate.]

[Posted & Mailed, due to the time-lag; f'up to NG]

Thanks folks! I bit the bullet and went for the A7N8X-E. I figured that
in the next few years my son may end up wanting to upgrade to SATA. It
wasn't that much more, and, coupled with the video card I got and the other
components, should result in a respectable and stable system.
Click to expand...
[snip]

Not *necessarily* the choice I would have made; but a good choice, based on
good reasoning, nonetheless. Congrats on dumping the onboard-video idea.
Now to convince him to let me upgrade from Win98 SE..... he doesn't like
change and feels that the new OSs are buggy and stuff.
Click to expand...
[snip]

He's at least partially right. Much depends on *exactly* which applications
you (or he) intend run, and what you/he will ultimately do with the system.
But with that caveat in place, note that far more important than which
"flavor" of Windows (i.e., DOS-based vs. NT-based) you use is that the
specific release be chosen carefully and that whatever you choose is properly
set up. Note that in this context, taking all the defaults and letting
Windows Setup make all the decisions is *far* from "properly set up".
(Wish I could find
reasonable W2000 Pro like I have.
Click to expand...
[snip]

Win2K can still be found in some retail channels, as well as on the grey
market.
I belive it is better than XP simply
because it tries to do less, but that is another story.)
Click to expand...

Indeed, you are correct -- and not only for that reason. Put simply, WinXP is
*evil*; but as you pointed out, that issue is sort'a OT here, so I'll leave it
at referring you to:

<http://www.hevanet.com/peace/microsoft.htm>
or <http://www.futurepower.net/microsoft.htm>

and (read all three):
<http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/03/14/11winman_1.html>
<http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/03/21/12winman_1.html>
<http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/03/28/13winman_1.html>

and finally:
<http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html>

If you want to go with an NT-based (as opposed to DOS-based) version of
Windows, then stick with Win2K/SP4; but be *SURE* to install it using
"2000lite", available here: <http://www.litepc.com/xplite.html>, so you can
tame some of its more egregious excesses (like MSIE, for example).

--

Jay T. Blocksom
--------------------------------
Appropriate Technology, Inc.
usenet01[at]appropriate-tech.net


"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Unsolicited advertising sent to this E-Mail address is expressly prohibited
under USC Title 47, Section 227. Violators are subject to charge of up to
$1,500 per incident or treble actual costs, whichever is greater.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 
[REPOST: Apparently, the original copy of this article did not propagate.
Apologies if duplicate.]

[snip]

Win2K or XP are both considerably better than Win9x.
Click to expand...
[snip]

You are painting with *way* too wide a brush.
If you've ever had a crash on Win98 you know it takes the whole system with
it,
Click to expand...
[snip]

This simply isn't true, at least in the overly broad way you've stated it.
First, much depends on which application is crashing -- and more importantly,
*why* it is crashing. Even then, if the system is properly set up, there is
no reason for it to "take the whole system with it".
...with Win2K/XP, not usually so - all the other applications remain
working (along with the OS).
Click to expand...
[snip]

Sometimes. Sometimes not. And even when you do "get lucky", prudence still
demands that you immediately shut down the system and re-boot.
I did a fresh install of Win98 when I was having some problems with it. I
then proceeded to open several Word docs, several Excel docs, a few PDFs, a
few web pages so that I could continue to do my project... Windows fell
over. So I rebooted and tried again.... fell over again.
Click to expand...
[snip]

Unless there's something else you're not telling us, there simply *must* have
been something very wrong with that system (beyond the choice of OS), as it
was set up (or possibly with the documents you were attempting to use).
Thousands upon millions of people open MS-Word docs, Excel spreadsheets, PDF
files, etc., every day, day in, day out, using Win98 (or other forms of Win9x)
*without* the symptoms you describe. Hence, those symptoms *cannot* be
reasonably attributed to Win98.

--

Jay T. Blocksom
--------------------------------
Appropriate Technology, Inc.
usenet01[at]appropriate-tech.net


"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

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