A64 3400+ K8V Deluxe - Recommendations for 2GB RAM?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Barry
  • Start date Start date
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Barry

After a lot of research on various websites and newsgroups, I'm
planning to ordering a K8V Deluxe and A64 3400+, and I'm a bit
confused over the possible memory configuration (haven't built many
systems in about 3 years, things have gotten a lot more complicated :)

One of my main apps uses an embedded Oracle 9i DB which just gobbles
RAM, so I need to put 2GB into this system. I've read several places
that the A64 has a limitation in supporting 2 sided DIMMs, and since
most of the online retailers don't make it clear at all from their
descriptions if a DIMM is single or dual sided, I was hoping someone
here could make a helpful suggestion.

From what I can gather, the A64 supports 2 slots with dual sided and 1
slot with single sided - is that right? If so, I'm inclined to just
get single sided now (and leave my future expansion more flexible)
unless the single sided is more expensive because of higher density
chips. Also, it appears to not support registered DIMMs - does that
mean they won't work or they're just not needed?

What I really need is just 2 1GB PC3200 DIMMs. Can someone suggest a
specific model (Corsair, Kingston, whatever) they would recommend or
are currently using? Hopefully with a model name/number I'll have a
bit more luck weeding out incompatible stuff.

One other thing; have you ever noticed that most of the online
retailers make it awfully frustrating to find RAM by referring to "1GB
kits", which are just 2x512 DIMM. Kinda stupid when you use their
(NewEgg, ZipZoomFly, Pricegrabber, etc.) search system and choose 1GB
PC3200, and almost all of the search results are actually 512MB DIMMs.
In fact, on NewEgg, the only way to find 1GB DIMMs is to search for
2GB DIMMs. Sheesh.

Anyway, thanks in advance for any help,

Barry
 
Barry,

With requirements like that, why are you not getting an opteron board?
For a database application, if you expect a 3.4 GHz machine is needed, then
your system will run even better with gobs more memory - and I mean gobs!

You will be able to have a lot more than 2 GB with less fuss and upgrade to
64 bit windows when it is out - if you are not using Linux that is...

Take a look over at www.2cpu.com for some ideas.

- Tim

Barry said:
After a lot of research on various websites and newsgroups, I'm
planning to ordering a K8V Deluxe and A64 3400+, and I'm a bit
confused over the possible memory configuration (haven't built many
systems in about 3 years, things have gotten a lot more complicated :)

One of my main apps uses an embedded Oracle 9i DB which just gobbles
RAM, so I need to put 2GB into this system. I've read several places
that the A64 has a limitation in supporting 2 sided DIMMs, and since
most of the online retailers don't make it clear at all from their
descriptions if a DIMM is single or dual sided, I was hoping someone
here could make a helpful suggestion.

From what I can gather, the A64 supports 2 slots with dual sided and 1
slot with single sided - is that right? If so, I'm inclined to just
get single sided now (and leave my future expansion more flexible)
unless the single sided is more expensive because of higher density
chips. Also, it appears to not support registered DIMMs - does that
mean they won't work or they're just not needed?

What I really need is just 2 1GB PC3200 DIMMs. Can someone suggest a
specific model (Corsair, Kingston, whatever) they would recommend or
are currently using? Hopefully with a model name/number I'll have a
bit more luck weeding out incompatible stuff.

One other thing; have you ever noticed that most of the online
retailers make it awfully frustrating to find RAM by referring to "1GB
kits", which are just 2x512 DIMM. Kinda stupid when you use their
(NewEgg, ZipZoomFly, Pricegrabber, etc.) search system and choose 1GB
PC3200, and almost all of the search results are actually 512MB DIMMs.
In fact, on NewEgg, the only way to find 1GB DIMMs is to search for
2GB DIMMs. Sheesh.

Anyway, thanks in advance for any help,

Barry



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The mb site lists reccommended memory
http://uk.asus.com/products/mb/socket754/k8v-d/overview.htm

Barry said:
After a lot of research on various websites and newsgroups, I'm
planning to ordering a K8V Deluxe and A64 3400+, and I'm a bit
confused over the possible memory configuration (haven't built many
systems in about 3 years, things have gotten a lot more complicated :)

One of my main apps uses an embedded Oracle 9i DB which just gobbles
RAM, so I need to put 2GB into this system. I've read several places
that the A64 has a limitation in supporting 2 sided DIMMs, and since
most of the online retailers don't make it clear at all from their
descriptions if a DIMM is single or dual sided, I was hoping someone
here could make a helpful suggestion.

From what I can gather, the A64 supports 2 slots with dual sided and 1
slot with single sided - is that right? If so, I'm inclined to just
get single sided now (and leave my future expansion more flexible)
unless the single sided is more expensive because of higher density
chips. Also, it appears to not support registered DIMMs - does that
mean they won't work or they're just not needed?

What I really need is just 2 1GB PC3200 DIMMs. Can someone suggest a
specific model (Corsair, Kingston, whatever) they would recommend or
are currently using? Hopefully with a model name/number I'll have a
bit more luck weeding out incompatible stuff.

One other thing; have you ever noticed that most of the online
retailers make it awfully frustrating to find RAM by referring to "1GB
kits", which are just 2x512 DIMM. Kinda stupid when you use their
(NewEgg, ZipZoomFly, Pricegrabber, etc.) search system and choose 1GB
PC3200, and almost all of the search results are actually 512MB DIMMs.
In fact, on NewEgg, the only way to find 1GB DIMMs is to search for
2GB DIMMs. Sheesh.

Anyway, thanks in advance for any help,

Barry



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Click to expand...
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Barry said:
After a lot of research on various websites and newsgroups, I'm
planning to ordering a K8V Deluxe and A64 3400+, and I'm a bit
confused over the possible memory configuration (haven't built many
systems in about 3 years, things have gotten a lot more complicated :)

One of my main apps uses an embedded Oracle 9i DB which just gobbles
RAM, so I need to put 2GB into this system. I've read several places
that the A64 has a limitation in supporting 2 sided DIMMs, and since
most of the online retailers don't make it clear at all from their
descriptions if a DIMM is single or dual sided, I was hoping someone
here could make a helpful suggestion.

From what I can gather, the A64 supports 2 slots with dual sided and 1
slot with single sided - is that right? If so, I'm inclined to just
get single sided now (and leave my future expansion more flexible)
unless the single sided is more expensive because of higher density
chips. Also, it appears to not support registered DIMMs - does that
mean they won't work or they're just not needed?

What I really need is just 2 1GB PC3200 DIMMs. Can someone suggest a
specific model (Corsair, Kingston, whatever) they would recommend or
are currently using? Hopefully with a model name/number I'll have a
bit more luck weeding out incompatible stuff.

One other thing; have you ever noticed that most of the online
retailers make it awfully frustrating to find RAM by referring to "1GB
kits", which are just 2x512 DIMM. Kinda stupid when you use their
(NewEgg, ZipZoomFly, Pricegrabber, etc.) search system and choose 1GB
PC3200, and almost all of the search results are actually 512MB DIMMs.
In fact, on NewEgg, the only way to find 1GB DIMMs is to search for
2GB DIMMs. Sheesh.

Anyway, thanks in advance for any help,

Barry
Click to expand...

I think it is better to shop for memory and a processor first, than
to go for the motherboard. The motherboard is a small expense
compared to some of the other potential items.

For the K8V, there are three DIMM sockets. It is a single channel
motherboard, where the Northbridge no longer drives the memory,
the processor does. The downloadable Asus manual (and the AMD
processor datasheet) give a table of what memory configurations
work, and the best you can do, is two double sided DIMMs at
DDR 400 (using slot 1 and 3). Think of it as a two slot board,
in terms of maximizing memory capacity (as single sided large
DIMMs exist only on paper).

The way the memory works on the K8V, is slot 1 has its own address
bus, and slot 2 and 3 are driven by a second address bus. These
busses have the same info at all times, so the purpose of the busses
is to improve the signal quality of the addresses. Since slot 1 is
by itself, the heaviest loading DIMM goes there (i.e. a double sided
DIMM for sure, or who knows, maybe even "stacked" memory). The
coloring of the DIMMs help signify this address difference, and
does not imply a true dual channel (2 address/2 data bus) solution.

If you look at the SK8V, it uses the Athlon FX processor, and has
four "registered" DIMM slots. Registering means there is a chip on
each DIMM to buffer the address bus, which means much larger memory
configs can be placed on a DIMM. The SK8V could take four cheap
512MB registered DIMMs. (The down side is the processor is expensive.)

Another issue is ECC, and if this board is serving the database to
multiple users, then the reliability of ECC may be handy as well
(i.e. telling you when there are memory problems immediately,
instead of finding out indirectly whenever the processor crashes).

So, for fun, here is a pricing exercise. Think of this as a horse
race. Make your own entries if you want :-)

The motherboards - prices are from Newegg.

SK8V K8T800/8237 Athlon FX sock940 dual chan 4 registered DIMMs, to 8GB
K8V K8T800/8237 Athlon64 sock754 single chan 3 unbuffered DIMMs
P4C800-e Deluxe Pentium4 sock478 dual channel 4 unbuffered DIMMs

SK8V $210
K8V $128
P4C800-e $178

The processors - prices are from Newegg and in brackets are from the
Intel pricelist on the Intel site.

A64 3000+ 2GHz 512KB $223
A64 3200+ 2GHz 1MB $282
A64 3400+ 2.2GHz 1MB $416
FX51 2.2GHz 1MB $733

P4 3.0C/800 512KB $225
P4 3.2C/800 512KB $285
P4 3.4C/800 512KB ($417)
P4EE 3.2/800 2MB ($925)
P4EE 3.4/800 2MB ($999)

Memories are from the Crucial site, using their config web pages:

http://www.crucial.com/store/listpa...rboards&mfr=ASUS&cat=RAM&model=SK8V&submit=Go

http://www.crucial.com/store/listpa...s&mfr=ASUS&cat=RAM&model=K8V+Deluxe&submit=Go

4*$137 CT6472Y40B 512MB ECC registered PC3200 CAS3
2*$440 CT12872Y40B 1GB ECC registered PC3200 CAS3

2*$263 CT12864Z40B 1GB no ECC unbuffered PC3200 CAS3
4*$93 CT6464Z40B 512MB no ECC unbuffered PC3200 CAS3

1) K8V $128 + (2*$263 CT12864Z40B 1GB) + A64 3000+ 2GHz 512KB $223 = $877
No ECC, memory maxed at 2GB.
[For ECC, buy two KVR400X72C3A/1G from Kingston for $597 each.]
2) SK8V $210 + (4*$137 CT6472Y40B 512MB) + FX51 2.2GHz 1MB $733 = $1491
ECC, sell memory before upgrading memory quantity
3) SK8V $210 + (2*$440 CT12872Y40B 1GB ECC) + FX51 2.2GHz 1MB $733 = $1823
ECC, room for two more 1GB or larger registered sticks, matched sets
4) P4C800-e $178 + (4*$93 CT6464Z40B 512MB) + P4 3.0C $225 = $775
No ECC, sell memory before upgrading memory quantity
For ECC, 4*$110 CT6472Z40B raises the end price to $843
Can also use 1GB unbuffered DIMMs if you want.

Choices (2) and (3) can go to 8GB and that is the main advantage you
get for the extra price. Choice (4) goes to slightly less than 4GB of
memory and you can pop in a more expensive Pentium if you want. Choice
(1) is fine if you never plan on upgrading (the $263 price on the memory
is a pleasant surprise).

Just for laughs, here is the largest registered memory I know of.
Sell your car and put two of those in an SK8V :-)

http://www.crucial.com/store/PartSpecs.asp?imodule=CT51272Y265&cat=RAM

4GB PC2100 Registered ECC CAS2.5 $6999.00

Moral of the story - you cannot choose a motherboard, until you line
up all the components first. Identifying the final configuration for
the machine is an important consideration.

Have fun,
Paul
 
Paul,

First of all thanks for a very informative and incredibly detailed
reply - I really appreciate you taking the time, and it has given me
an idea to go a slightly different way.

I think it is better to shop for memory and a processor first, than
to go for the motherboard.
Click to expand...

I totally agree, and I actually did start with the CPU, or at least
the package; I considered dual Xeon, P4, dual opteron or Athlon64.
I should've been clearer that this is primary my home system, and
maybe 20% of it's use will be running Oracle (I work for a software
company), and even that will be strictly developmental, not
production, so I'm really not concerned about ECC, etc. - can't hurt,
of course, but not really part of the decision.
For the K8V, there are three DIMM sockets. It is a single channel
motherboard, where the Northbridge no longer drives the memory,
the processor does. The downloadable Asus manual (and the AMD
processor datasheet) give a table of what memory configurations
work, and the best you can do, is two double sided DIMMs at
DDR 400 (using slot 1 and 3). Think of it as a two slot board,
in terms of maximizing memory capacity (as single sided large
DIMMs exist only on paper).

The way the memory works on the K8V, is slot 1 has its own address
bus, and slot 2 and 3 are driven by a second address bus. These
busses have the same info at all times, so the purpose of the busses
is to improve the signal quality of the addresses. Since slot 1 is
by itself, the heaviest loading DIMM goes there (i.e. a double sided
DIMM for sure, or who knows, maybe even "stacked" memory). The
coloring of the DIMMs help signify this address difference, and
does not imply a true dual channel (2 address/2 data bus) solution.
Click to expand...
This is the clearest, most lucid description I've seen yet (and I've
looked around) of the memory config options for A64. I have to say it
suprised me as well, but I guess not that many people really want
2-3GB on an A64 based system.
If you look at the SK8V, it uses the Athlon FX processor, and has
four "registered" DIMM slots. Registering means there is a chip on
each DIMM to buffer the address bus, which means much larger memory
configs can be placed on a DIMM. The SK8V could take four cheap
512MB registered DIMMs. (The down side is the processor is expensive.)
Click to expand...
I considered the Athlon FX and dismissed it because reviews and
benchmarks seemed to suggest that it had a marginal performance edge
for a pretty substantial cost increase (although I always look at the
cost difference relative to the whole system, not just the cpu). It
really hadn't occurred to me to look at this as an alternative to get
more flexibility in memory, and right now I think I'm probably going
to go with the FX. Once again, thanks for a tremendously helpful post,
as I just hadn't even considered that, even though read specs on
plenty of Athlon FX boards. Ah well, sometimes I just don't think.

If you don't mind, I'd like to pose one more question and see what you
think. Right now I'm figuring either I'll go with an Athlon FX or a
dual Opteron system. I originally was planning to go dual Xeon, but
couldn't justify the extra cost when 80% of the time the system would
be doing general home computer stuff, and I've never played that many
3D games, although I do take a lot of pictures and use Photoshop quite
a bit.

Here's what I'm wondering: the Opteron 248 (2.2GHz, same as FX) is
*really* expensive - around $950, and hardly anyone carries it anyway.
The Opteron 246 (2.0 GHz) is still going to set me back around $690 a
piece. If I were to go with dual 246's, I'd imagine that most
applications would actually be slower than an Athlon FX, since very
few apps are able to take advantage of dual CPUs (assuming the rest of
system was identical). Anyone know of a review that could offer that
kind of comparison? I'm sure I do a lot more that uses dual CPUs
(VMWare as well) than a typical home user, but I'm still not sure I
can justify an extra $800 if it would generally be the same speed or a
bit slower. What do you think?

Oh yeah, one totally off topic question (feel free to ignore): I chose
the Hitachi (IBM) 7K250 250GB SATA as my drive (good all around, but
largely because it's very quiet - great in an apartment). Now that I
go to actually order things, it seems like everybody and his dog has
it on back order. Not really a big deal (I'm not in a huge rush), but
has anyone heard of any manufacturing problems, recalls, etc.? I don't
see anything on the net, but it's worth asking.

Anyway, thanks again for a ton of great information - it'll definitely
make my life easier. And who knows, maybe I'll get really drunk when
I'm ordering the parts, order up a couple of those 4GB DIMMs and
totally wreck my credit card.

Barry
 
Barry,

Think RAID 1 + Backups.

From a resilience perspective, a single IDE drive is suicide in a config
like that. 250GB + 1 problem = lost profit. I would suggest 2 x raptors in a
RAID 1 config as a good budget config if SCSI can't be justied. Use the
large IDE drives for backups / dumps / archives etc.

To get best performance from a dual, SCSI is recommended, next WD Raptors -
the new 74 GB drives with the better RAID 1 / RAID 10 SATA controllers, then
PATA RAID IDE controllers.

Without SCSI, the IDE bus (SATA or not) has the ability to lockup IO's on
your system rendering the second CPU dormant while the first CPU is possibly
still not very busy. Dual CPU's on SCSI is an absolute pleasure, single CPU
on IDE (even at 3GHz) can seem like a single tasking operating system.

- Tim


Barry said:
Paul,

First of all thanks for a very informative and incredibly detailed
reply - I really appreciate you taking the time, and it has given me
an idea to go a slightly different way.



I totally agree, and I actually did start with the CPU, or at least
the package; I considered dual Xeon, P4, dual opteron or Athlon64.
I should've been clearer that this is primary my home system, and
maybe 20% of it's use will be running Oracle (I work for a software
company), and even that will be strictly developmental, not
production, so I'm really not concerned about ECC, etc. - can't hurt,
of course, but not really part of the decision.

This is the clearest, most lucid description I've seen yet (and I've
looked around) of the memory config options for A64. I have to say it
suprised me as well, but I guess not that many people really want
2-3GB on an A64 based system.

I considered the Athlon FX and dismissed it because reviews and
benchmarks seemed to suggest that it had a marginal performance edge
for a pretty substantial cost increase (although I always look at the
cost difference relative to the whole system, not just the cpu). It
really hadn't occurred to me to look at this as an alternative to get
more flexibility in memory, and right now I think I'm probably going
to go with the FX. Once again, thanks for a tremendously helpful post,
as I just hadn't even considered that, even though read specs on
plenty of Athlon FX boards. Ah well, sometimes I just don't think.

If you don't mind, I'd like to pose one more question and see what you
think. Right now I'm figuring either I'll go with an Athlon FX or a
dual Opteron system. I originally was planning to go dual Xeon, but
couldn't justify the extra cost when 80% of the time the system would
be doing general home computer stuff, and I've never played that many
3D games, although I do take a lot of pictures and use Photoshop quite
a bit.

Here's what I'm wondering: the Opteron 248 (2.2GHz, same as FX) is
*really* expensive - around $950, and hardly anyone carries it anyway.
The Opteron 246 (2.0 GHz) is still going to set me back around $690 a
piece. If I were to go with dual 246's, I'd imagine that most
applications would actually be slower than an Athlon FX, since very
few apps are able to take advantage of dual CPUs (assuming the rest of
system was identical). Anyone know of a review that could offer that
kind of comparison? I'm sure I do a lot more that uses dual CPUs
(VMWare as well) than a typical home user, but I'm still not sure I
can justify an extra $800 if it would generally be the same speed or a
bit slower. What do you think?

Oh yeah, one totally off topic question (feel free to ignore): I chose
the Hitachi (IBM) 7K250 250GB SATA as my drive (good all around, but
largely because it's very quiet - great in an apartment). Now that I
go to actually order things, it seems like everybody and his dog has
it on back order. Not really a big deal (I'm not in a huge rush), but
has anyone heard of any manufacturing problems, recalls, etc.? I don't
see anything on the net, but it's worth asking.

Anyway, thanks again for a ton of great information - it'll definitely
make my life easier. And who knows, maybe I'll get really drunk when
I'm ordering the parts, order up a couple of those 4GB DIMMs and
totally wreck my credit card.

Barry




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Barry said:
Paul,

First of all thanks for a very informative and incredibly detailed
reply - I really appreciate you taking the time, and it has given me
an idea to go a slightly different way.



I totally agree, and I actually did start with the CPU, or at least
the package; I considered dual Xeon, P4, dual opteron or Athlon64.
I should've been clearer that this is primary my home system, and
maybe 20% of it's use will be running Oracle (I work for a software
company), and even that will be strictly developmental, not
production, so I'm really not concerned about ECC, etc. - can't hurt,
of course, but not really part of the decision.

This is the clearest, most lucid description I've seen yet (and I've
looked around) of the memory config options for A64. I have to say it
suprised me as well, but I guess not that many people really want
2-3GB on an A64 based system.

I considered the Athlon FX and dismissed it because reviews and
benchmarks seemed to suggest that it had a marginal performance edge
for a pretty substantial cost increase (although I always look at the
cost difference relative to the whole system, not just the cpu). It
really hadn't occurred to me to look at this as an alternative to get
more flexibility in memory, and right now I think I'm probably going
to go with the FX. Once again, thanks for a tremendously helpful post,
as I just hadn't even considered that, even though read specs on
plenty of Athlon FX boards. Ah well, sometimes I just don't think.

If you don't mind, I'd like to pose one more question and see what you
think. Right now I'm figuring either I'll go with an Athlon FX or a
dual Opteron system. I originally was planning to go dual Xeon, but
couldn't justify the extra cost when 80% of the time the system would
be doing general home computer stuff, and I've never played that many
3D games, although I do take a lot of pictures and use Photoshop quite
a bit.

Here's what I'm wondering: the Opteron 248 (2.2GHz, same as FX) is
*really* expensive - around $950, and hardly anyone carries it anyway.
The Opteron 246 (2.0 GHz) is still going to set me back around $690 a
piece. If I were to go with dual 246's, I'd imagine that most
applications would actually be slower than an Athlon FX, since very
few apps are able to take advantage of dual CPUs (assuming the rest of
system was identical). Anyone know of a review that could offer that
kind of comparison? I'm sure I do a lot more that uses dual CPUs
(VMWare as well) than a typical home user, but I'm still not sure I
can justify an extra $800 if it would generally be the same speed or a
bit slower. What do you think?
Click to expand...

First off, review sites hardly ever "cross boundaries". A dual Opteron
would be a server product, while the FX would be a desktop or
workstation board. If you are going to find it anywhere, you might try
Anandtech.

FX versus A64. The comments to this article suggested the second link:
http://www.anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1941&p=11

Now, the following is a rich man's system. Should be good at Photoshop.
Note how many DIMMs cah be installed in that system. Dual Opteron is
NUMA and each processor has its own collection of DIMMs. The
memory bandwidth is pretty impressive, assuming it can actually
be harnessed.
http://www.planet3dnow.de/artikel/hardware/dualk8/6.shtml

(More comments)
http://www.amdzone.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=193

You may want to lurk over here, for general comments about
how smooth duals can be:

http://forums.2cpu.com/

Also, WRT the single FX-51 system. If you can hold off for a week
or two, the FX-53 is being introduced real soon now. Some place
is taking pre-orders. This should push down the price of the
FX-51.
Oh yeah, one totally off topic question (feel free to ignore): I chose
the Hitachi (IBM) 7K250 250GB SATA as my drive (good all around, but
largely because it's very quiet - great in an apartment). Now that I
go to actually order things, it seems like everybody and his dog has
it on back order. Not really a big deal (I'm not in a huge rush), but
has anyone heard of any manufacturing problems, recalls, etc.? I don't
see anything on the net, but it's worth asking.

Anyway, thanks again for a ton of great information - it'll definitely
make my life easier. And who knows, maybe I'll get really drunk when
I'm ordering the parts, order up a couple of those 4GB DIMMs and
totally wreck my credit card.

Barry
Click to expand...

My personal opinion of large disks like this, is the fault size is
too large. Everything takes a lot longer when you use large devices
like this. You'll need to plan some kind of backup strategy, and
backups might end up taking more than overnight with anything
except another disk. I have a large collection of 40's, 60's,
and 80's, and they are enough trouble when doing Partition Magic
moves and the like. I cannot imagine what would happen if you
resized or moved something on a 250.

You also have the joy of dealing with 48bit LBA issues - over
137GB the OS has to have support for pushing 48bit addresses
to the disk controller, and some people have a lot of problems
getting this set up properly. For the size you are after,
I'd sooner have a pair of 120GB disks myself. Judging by your
choice, you've probably already been to storagereview.com and
perused their performance database. I like to select mine
based partly on the "quietness" table.

If you do choose to use a disk larger than 137GB, test it by
copying enough 1GB sized files to it, until you get past the
137GB mark. If the install isn't perfect, you'll get instant
file system corruption, and will get the warning before any
real valuable files are on the disk. I tested my last two
new disks by filling them with 1GB files and running a checksum
program on all of the files, to make sure everything was OK.

HTH,
Paul
 
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