A Memory Question

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ron
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R

Ron

OK, I had 1GB of memory on my computer, and it was usually using a
little over 1/2 of it with my normal applications running. Browser,
firewall, antivirus, antispyware, etc. (not running scans with the
anti's, just running in the background)

I added another GB of memory and it's still using a little over 1/2 of
the memory.

Granted, I now have twice the available memory, but shouldn't I have
about 3 times as much with the same applications running?



Windows 2000 Pro
2.6GHz Celeron D Processor
Seagate 80GB HDD (30% free)
2 GB's of RAM (obviously)
Installed in this barebones kit http://tinyurl.com/2tzfnw

(I "built" the computer a yr ago and it was just reformatted about 6
wks ago)
 
Ron said:
OK, I had 1GB of memory on my computer, and it was usually using a
little over 1/2 of it with my normal applications running. Browser,
firewall, antivirus, antispyware, etc. (not running scans with the
anti's, just running in the background)

I added another GB of memory and it's still using a little over 1/2 of
the memory.

Granted, I now have twice the available memory, but shouldn't I have
about 3 times as much with the same applications running?


Windows 2000 Pro

OK. None of this is fact, just my interpretation of what might be going
on...

2 fact: Windows will load more system into RAM when it boots, if there is
more RAM available. Secondly, the total memory figures you are looking at
probably include the swap file (virtual memory) - an area of hard disk
Windows uses to suppliment real RAM.

My hypothesis: With 1GB RAM + 1.5GB swap file, you were using half, which is
around 1.25GB of 'memory'. Now you have 2GB RAM and the swap file probably
hasn't changed, or might have even dynamically gone down, so you have 2GB
RAM + less than 1.5GB swap file = around 3GB ish and you are using 1.25GB +
a little more because windows will use it if its there. So you are perhaps
pushing 1.5GB of 'memory' in use out of a total somewhere around 3GB, which
is still half.

Don't quote me on any of this, but that's my theory!

You would getter more knowledgable answers if you ask this question in a
Windows group.
 
R> OK, I had 1GB of memory on my computer, and it was usually using a
R> little over 1/2 of it with my normal applications running.

memory usage cannot be measured reliably in modern OS which uses virtual
memory.
with unified memory architecture, RAM can be seen as cache for slower HDD.
with more RAM it works faster, with less RAM it works slower.

of course, this depends on a workload. at some point there is "enough" RAM
and bringing more of it won't give noticable benefits.

thus, you need to buy more RAM when your computer is slow doing "paging" --
this can be seen as disk activities other than file operations.

R> I added another GB of memory and it's still using a little over 1/2 of
R> the memory.

how did you measure this?
 
OK. None of this is fact, just my interpretation of what might be going
on...

2 fact: Windows will load more system into RAM when it boots, if there is
more RAM available. Secondly, the total memory figures you are looking at
probably include the swap file (virtual memory) - an area of hard disk
Windows uses to suppliment real RAM.

My hypothesis: With 1GB RAM + 1.5GB swap file, you were using half, which is
around 1.25GB of 'memory'. Now you have 2GB RAM and the swap file probably
hasn't changed, or might have even dynamically gone down, so you have 2GB
RAM + less than 1.5GB swap file = around 3GB ish and you are using 1.25GB +
a little more because windows will use it if its there. So you are perhaps
pushing 1.5GB of 'memory' in use out of a total somewhere around 3GB, which
is still half.

Don't quote me on any of this, but that's my theory!

You would getter more knowledgable answers if you ask this question in a
Windows group.

A friend of mine told me basically the same thing.

He also told me that if I changed over to XP
I wouldn;t have this "problem" but then goes on
to say that W2K Pro is the most stable Windows OS
to date. (and he has had Vista for a yr)

So, he totally confused me.
 
R> OK, I had 1GB of memory on my computer, and it was usually using a
R> little over 1/2 of it with my normal applications running.

memory usage cannot be measured reliably in modern OS which uses virtual
memory.
with unified memory architecture, RAM can be seen as cache for slower HDD.
with more RAM it works faster, with less RAM it works slower.

of course, this depends on a workload. at some point there is "enough" RAM
and bringing more of it won't give noticable benefits.

thus, you need to buy more RAM when your computer is slow doing "paging" --
this can be seen as disk activities other than file operations.

R> I added another GB of memory and it's still using a little over 1/2 of
R> the memory.

how did you measure this?

I'm going by the task manager

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p96/bigelile/memoryusage-1.jpg
 
OK, I had 1GB of memory on my computer, and it was usually using a
A friend of mine told me basically the same thing.

He also told me that if I changed over to XP
I wouldn;t have this "problem" but then goes on
to say that W2K Pro is the most stable Windows OS
to date. (and he has had Vista for a yr)

I don't know about that - I find XP at least as stable as Win2K was. It is
newer and has better control when things go wrong. It has more support and
pretty much every driver going. Win 2K won't play all games, but if you are
happy with what you have, then leave it alone!!!

If you are finding things are running badly (I presume this by the memory
upgrade), then perhaps your swapfile is fragmented. Set the virtual memory
size to min = 0 and max = 0, then reboot. Defragment your hard drive, then
set the virtual memory size to min = 2gb, max = 2gb. That would give you 4gb
total memory, which is plenty for just about anyone in Win2k. By setting the
min and max to the same size, Windows will create the virtual memory file
(page file) in 1 contiguous block and it will never change size, so will not
get fragmented and slow down.
 
Ron said:

I use the Commit Charge as a metric. After using the computer all day, have
a look at the Peak, and from that, you can gauge how much physical memory you should
have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commit_charge

I have Win2K, and right after a reboot, Commit Charge will be about 250-260MB
or so. The antivirus software takes a bit, and is already loaded at that point.
Also, the ATI control panel uses .NET, and loading the .NET library could be
responsible for 50MB or so. (I.e. If I used a different video card, the Commit
at startup might have been lower.)

My Peak during the day, might go to 900 or so (recorded after gaming). I have 1GB
of PC3200 total. I've only had a few occasions where the Peak went into Swap Country,
which is why I don't feel a need to install more memory.

A program like Prime95 should take the Peak up to the physical memory size,
or close to it. (At least if you don't adjust the custom dialog and memory
usage value.) When it says "Join GIMPs?", just say No (unless you like to
leave the computer running, to compute prime numbers when not in use).
This is a good stress test, and it can detect computing or memory errors.

http://www.mersenne.org/gimps/p95v255a.zip

Paul
 
R>>> I added another GB of memory and it's still using a little over 1/2 of
R>>> the memory.
??>>
??>> how did you measure this?

R> I'm going by the task manager

R> http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p96/bigelile/memoryusage-1.jpg

ok, why do you think it's "a little over 1/2"?

it shows mem usage of 472MB, you have 2088MB available, so you have
something like 1/4 memory used.
there is also 1.4 GB cache -- that's how Windows uses your memory updrade.
loading cached applications and files will be much faster.
 
Ron said:

Well, my system has 3GB memory and 95-99% it usually hit the 99-100% mark.
But if I don't run anything then of course it should drop to bottom.

So, if you don't run anything or not a very user then I think you are fine
with 1G memory. But like others say, if you look for better performance
then more memory will give you a better performance. And you will need
plenty of disk s[ace for swapping as well.
 
OK, I had 1GB of memory on my computer, and it was usually using a
little over 1/2 of it with my normal applications running. Browser,
firewall, antivirus, antispyware, etc. (not running scans with the
anti's, just running in the background)

I added another GB of memory and it's still using a little over 1/2 of
the memory.

Granted, I now have twice the available memory, but shouldn't I have
about 3 times as much with the same applications running?



Windows 2000 Pro
2.6GHz Celeron D Processor
Seagate 80GB HDD (30% free)
2 GB's of RAM (obviously)
Installed in this barebones kit http://tinyurl.com/2tzfnw

(I "built" the computer a yr ago and it was just reformatted about 6
wks ago)


No you should not have more "free" or empty memory, empty
memory is wasted memory.

With more memory installed, Windows maintains a larger
system cache (about 1.4GB in your picture) which is exactly
what you want to have happen. This means it caches drive
reads to greatly reduce HDD acess, and when an application
needs more memory some of the cache is flushed.
 
I don't know about that - I find XP at least as stable as Win2K was.

The key is "was", but Win2k has also further matured and
become more stable. Basically, XP is less stable because XP
has more addt'l things tacked onto it. Beyond that, they are
very much the same OS.

It is
newer

Which makes it less mature, the newer things added are prone
to have more bugs remaining.
and has better control when things go wrong.

"Control" of what? In typical uses it doesn't matter, what
really matters is if the user/environment needs the things
XP adds or not.

It has more support and
pretty much every driver going.

Support? For what?
Most 3rd party XP drivers work on 2k.
You shouldn't want any of the drivers that come with XP
installed at all. XP is worse for having drivers included
because in many cases you don't want to have to do a lot of
extra things to prevent XP from protecting it's original
files trying to get the newer better, fuller featured driver
installed. It's just cleaner too to never have old
references to nor remnants of drivers instead of having the
OS wait for the specific driver you choose. It only takes
10 minutes or less to install all drivers for a system that
may run for years.

Win 2K won't play all games, but if you are
happy with what you have, then leave it alone!!!

I've heard that a lot but there aren't many games 2K won't
play. Gamers are funny though, some will do a special
config of 2K specifically for gaming, or of server 2K3 with
re-enabled features MS had disabled, or a tiny XP install.
It's really not very important, I agree if a system is
running an OS that does what needs done there is no
compelling reason to change, even reason not to since the XP
license adds about $120 onto the cost.

If you are finding things are running badly (I presume this by the memory
upgrade), then perhaps your swapfile is fragmented. Set the virtual memory
size to min = 0 and max = 0, then reboot. Defragment your hard drive, then
set the virtual memory size to min = 2gb, max = 2gb. That would give you 4gb
total memory, which is plenty for just about anyone in Win2k. By setting the
min and max to the same size, Windows will create the virtual memory file
(page file) in 1 contiguous block and it will never change size, so will not
get fragmented and slow down.

It's not likely to be a virtual memory problem because if
there were a significant amount of virtual memory in use the
system would've ground to a halt with 1GB of memory versus
2GB, and wouldn't have a 1.4GB system cache as pictured.
When the cache is that large the primary access to virtual
memory is just allocation of memory segments never used - a
tiny write that isn't impacted much at all by pagefile
fragmentation.

While setting pagefile minimum to a fixed size is useful,
setting the max value such that it never grows larger is not
of much usefullness because if the system were ever to need
more it has a problem, while if it doesn't need more then
there would be no fragmentation without the fixed max value.
 
No you should not have more "free" or empty memory, empty
memory is wasted memory.

With more memory installed, Windows maintains a larger
system cache (about 1.4GB in your picture) which is exactly
what you want to have happen. This means it caches drive
reads to greatly reduce HDD acess, and when an application
needs more memory some of the cache is flushed.

OK, cool. I was reading it incorrectly.
 
No. Incorrect thinking. When using the same applications you will not see
a serious change in RAM levels used. But you now have the ability to open
many more LARGER files than before simultaneously.
 
OK, cool. I was reading it incorrectly.

However, looking at the Task Manager picture you'd linked
again, it seems odd the system is still using about 470MB of
memory with only the Task Manger window, a newsgroup reader,
and a few tray icons running (I dont' know what all those
are, maybe one uses a lot of memory?). I presume this is on
XP w/SP2 which accounts for some of it but IIRC a fresh
XP/SP2 installation uses less than 200MB before anything
else is loaded.
 
However, looking at the Task Manager picture you'd linked
again, it seems odd the system is still using about 470MB of
memory with only the Task Manger window, a newsgroup reader,
and a few tray icons running (I dont' know what all those
are, maybe one uses a lot of memory?). I presume this is on
XP w/SP2 which accounts for some of it but IIRC a fresh
XP/SP2 installation uses less than 200MB before anything
else is loaded.

W2K SP4.

And I'm posting through Google so Firefox was also open in that
picture.
 
W2K SP4.

And I'm posting through Google so Firefox was also open in that
picture.

I take that back, I'm on a box running Win2k/SP4 right now
and it similarly has only Task Manager and newsreader open
plus several taskbar tray icons, and is registering 402MB
Total Commit Charge. Didn't notice the figure grew as much
as it did over time!
 
Ron said:
W2K SP4.

And I'm posting through Google so Firefox was also open in that
picture.

I don't know about your system and your FireFox, but from my very own
experience I have noticed the longer you lets Opera or FireFox running the
more memory it will take. Or at start they may only use around 40-50K of
memory, but after hours running the amount of memory may increase to 100+KB
and start eating CPU as well.

I am guessing these great freebies may do some advertising in background.
 
I don't know about your system and your FireFox, but from my very own
experience I have noticed the longer you lets Opera or FireFox running the
more memory it will take. Or at start they may only use around 40-50K of
memory, but after hours running the amount of memory may increase to 100+KB
and start eating CPU as well.

I am guessing these great freebies may do some advertising in background.

Firefox does no advertising in the background, though it
does cache a lot. Frankly I prefer it that way, with memory
so cheap these days sometimes it seems pretty crazy that
(IE) writes all the cachefiles to disk, so I set it's
temporary cache to a ramdrive.
 
kony said:
Firefox does no advertising in the background, though it
does cache a lot. Frankly I prefer it that way, with memory
so cheap these days sometimes it seems pretty crazy that
(IE) writes all the cachefiles to disk, so I set it's
temporary cache to a ramdrive.

I used to have browser running 24/7 for days, until I found out the longer
I lets them running the more memory and CPU they eat. And couple version of
FireFox eats lot more and faster than Opera, so right now I use Opera more
often (and Opera has lot of issue with Java script) but won't lets neither
one running for more than few hours.
 
DaveW said:
No. Incorrect thinking. When using the same applications you will not
see a serious change in RAM levels used. But you now have the ability to
open many more LARGER files than before simultaneously.

What is this reply in relation to? You have quoted no text from the original
message, which not everyone has (including me)!
 
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