A different ftp question

  • Thread starter Thread starter wcrouse
  • Start date Start date
W

wcrouse

Okay, I believe I understand publishing to a server running Frontpage
2002 extensions. But this is a little different, and I've already
corrupted by extensions once. So.
In the beginning, I tried to publish my site to the wrong location, to
'myispswebhost.mydomain.com' rather than to 'www.mydomain.com'. The
result is that I now have a ton of files in an incorrect location one
level above my true web location on my isp's server. And I'm paying
for the space.
Using FP, I can see my now properly published site fine and it works.
But how do I remove the extraneous files a level above my web? I can't
see them in FrontPage!
I can ftp to my isp's server named webhost, and using my isp assigned
account name and password (not my web specific username/password for
frontpage), I can see the two domains I operate, 'www.mydomain1.com'
and 'www.mydomain.2.com', plus I can see my root level containing the
spurious files. All right.
My question: I've already corrupted my FrontPage extensions once by
using ftp. Will I corrupt the extensions again if I connect to the
server 'webhost' by ftp in order to delete these dangling files? If I
don't open the subfolder named 'www.mydomain.com', can I perform this
operation without problems to my sites? Everything I've read pertains
only to a published web, and FrontPage itself seems to handle this
admirably. I just need to lose these big and improperly placed files.
Thanks!
 
wcrouse said:
Okay, I believe I understand publishing to a server running Frontpage
2002 extensions. But this is a little different, and I've already
corrupted by extensions once. So.
In the beginning, I tried to publish my site to the wrong location, to
'myispswebhost.mydomain.com' rather than to 'www.mydomain.com'. The
result is that I now have a ton of files in an incorrect location one
level above my true web location on my isp's server. And I'm paying
for the space.
Using FP, I can see my now properly published site fine and it works.
But how do I remove the extraneous files a level above my web? I can't
see them in FrontPage!
I can ftp to my isp's server named webhost, and using my isp assigned
account name and password (not my web specific username/password for
frontpage), I can see the two domains I operate, 'www.mydomain1.com'
and 'www.mydomain.2.com', plus I can see my root level containing the
spurious files. All right.
My question: I've already corrupted my FrontPage extensions once by
using ftp. Will I corrupt the extensions again if I connect to the
server 'webhost' by ftp in order to delete these dangling files? If I
don't open the subfolder named 'www.mydomain.com', can I perform this
operation without problems to my sites? Everything I've read pertains
only to a published web, and FrontPage itself seems to handle this
admirably. I just need to lose these big and improperly placed files.
Thanks!
Click to expand...

Your safest bet may be to simply contact your ISP, let them know what you
did, and ask them to remove the extraneous files. They should be willing to
do this if they're good folks.
 
Deleting files with FTP should not corrupt the FP
extensions. Just don't upload using FTP!
 
Wes said:
Deleting files with FTP should not corrupt the FP
extensions. Just don't upload using FTP!
Click to expand...

Urban myth?
Does it depend on which files are being FTP'd?
Sure, anything in the underscore folders is asking for trouble but in the
last five years, I've been looking after many an FPE site that have had
files uploaded with an conventional FTP client (many webcams do this for a
start) and in not a single case were the extensions corrupted.
 
If the files are not managed by FP (media files) and you know what you are doing you can FTP safely
- but you may end up w/ publishing errors since the 2 webs are not in sync
- and problems arise when you FTP html files
(they will usually clobber the FP SE and corrupt the FP META Files plus design time content)
That's why the std recommendation to most users is Do Not FTP
Ideally for media files create a subweb to FTP to (and don't reopen it in FP)
--




| Wes wrote:
| > Deleting files with FTP should not corrupt the FP
| > extensions. Just don't upload using FTP!
| >
|
| Urban myth?
| Does it depend on which files are being FTP'd?
| Sure, anything in the underscore folders is asking for trouble but in the
| last five years, I've been looking after many an FPE site that have had
| files uploaded with an conventional FTP client (many webcams do this for a
| start) and in not a single case were the extensions corrupted.
|
| --
| Brett
|
| In Vegas, I got into a long argument with the man at the roulette
| wheel over what I considered to be an odd number.
|
|
 
Stefan said:
If the files are not managed by FP (media files) and you know what
you are doing you can FTP safely
- but you may end up w/ publishing errors since the 2 webs are not in
sync
- and problems arise when you FTP html files
(they will usually clobber the FP SE and corrupt the FP META Files
plus design time content)
That's why the std recommendation to most users is Do Not FTP
Ideally for media files create a subweb to FTP to (and don't reopen
it in FP)
Click to expand...

What would be helpful is a definitive guide as to what and what should not
be FTP'd.
The blanket "do not FTP to an FPSE enabled server" is really a cop out and
of little help top those of us who NEED to FTP files to our servers.
Clearly, there are folk out there who are FTPing files without the slightest
problem.
So what is it that actually causes the FPSEs to fall over?
--
Brett

Some people think George is weird, because he has sideburns behind his
ears. I think George is weird, because he has false teeth. with braces
on them. George is a radio announcer, and when he walks under a
bridge...you can't hear him talk.
 
So many times you will see " I was not able to publish or open my site with
FP, but I was able to upload my site with FTP using my same login and
password." Instead of contacting their host, they immediately use a FTP
application to publish. This is how the FP extensions get corrupted.

I will continue to state "Do not use FTP when you have the FP extensions
installed"!

The main issue, is the uploading of the local machine's _vti folder/files
via FTP overwriting the one create by the server.

FP never publishes the _vti folder between machines, as they are
website/machine dependent and when publishing to a server with the FP
extensions, the extensions on the server, create/maintain the _vti folder on
that server.

Also when you use FTP to upload content to a FP enabled web site, FP is not
aware that any changes in content has been made until you open the site live
in FP and run Tools recalculate Hyperlink and this doesn't always work, in
these cases. So by using FTP you have to do 2 steps, where as if you use FP,
you only have to do 1 step, publish. Now if you just need to upload a single
file, and you want to avoid publishing, open both the local copy and remote
copy, and then copy and paste between them.

Folks that are using FTP and do not have a problem, are those that we are
not attempting help, however if they run into problems, then it is best not
to use FTP when uploading content to a FP enabled server. Many host do not
provide FTP access when a hosting account has FP extensions.

Now if you are working with a data base driven web site which display image,
etc. as part of the results or have large number of files or large file
sizes available for downloading, then create a subweb, and using FTP to
upload the content is recommended, as FP really doesn't need to manage these
files.

--

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, Forums, WebCircle,
MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
 
Thomas said:
So many times you will see " I was not able to publish or open my
site with FP, but I was able to upload my site with FTP using my same
login and password." Instead of contacting their host, they
immediately use a FTP application to publish. This is how the FP
extensions get corrupted.

I will continue to state "Do not use FTP when you have the FP
extensions installed"!
Click to expand...

That is ok if you feel that the best way to drive without causing an
accicent is to leave your car at home.
In other words the advice you give doesn't help the user who needs to use
FTP on their FPSE enabled site.
The main issue, is the uploading of the local machine's _vti
folder/files via FTP overwriting the one create by the server.
Click to expand...

This is what I was getting at.
Are you saying that FPSE will not be corrupted if _vti folder/files are left
alone?
Folks that are using FTP and do not have a problem, are those that we
are not attempting help,
Click to expand...

Sorry who is "we"?
What about those people who are using FTP and want to avoid problems?
Perhaps others who have some knowledge of the interaction between FTP and FP
would be able to help out here?
 
Brett,

Can you explain why you feel you and others need to use FTP on a FP enabled
web site?

--

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, Forums, WebCircle,
MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
 
Thomas said:
Brett,

Can you explain why you feel you and others need to use FTP on a FP
enabled web site?
Click to expand...

There can be lots of reasons, but a couple of real examples....

The site uses data uploaded from a weather station.

The site has a webcam.
 
Based on the 2 examples indicated, this would be easily solve by create
individual subwebs to handle the content to be uploaded via FTP. This way
there is no chance of the FP extensions getting corrupted, as well as the
fact that FP has no need to track this info.

I and others have recommended this approach in the past and will continue to
do so, when folks specific indicate what that need to accomplish. However in
general without knowing the specific or the specific can't be determine from
the post will continue to post that FTP should not be used with a FP enabled
web site.

--

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, Forums, WebCircle,
MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
 
Thomas said:
Based on the 2 examples indicated, this would be easily solve by
create individual subwebs to handle the content to be uploaded via
FTP. This way there is no chance of the FP extensions getting
corrupted, as well as the fact that FP has no need to track this info.
Click to expand...

I realise that, but that fails to answer the question being asked...

If people are using FTP on FPSE enabled sites without problems, what exactly
needs to occur for the extensions to be corrupted?

Second, you said:
The main issue, is the uploading of the local machine's _vti
folder/files via FTP overwriting the one create by the server.
Click to expand...

But did not answer the question....
Will FPSE not be corrupted if _vti folder/files are left alone?
 
1. Copying the _vti folders between machines will corrupt the FP extensions.

2. Using FTP carefully where you do not copy the _vti folders, still creates
problems since FP is not aware of any changes that have been to the web
content.

3. If you have a need to use FTP for the situations that you indicated or
similar, like images being called by a database driven application, files
that are for downloading, then the best and safest option is to use subwebs.

Also keep in mind that many people visit this newsgroup and never ask
questions, but read and follow the advice posted, which may not always be
related to their actual situation or issues, so I will continue to post my
response to no use FTP with a FP enabled web site unless enough info is
provided to truly understand the specific issues.

--

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, Forums, WebCircle,
MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
 
Thomas said:
1. Copying the _vti folders between machines will corrupt the FP
extensions.
Click to expand...

That has been my experience
2. Using FTP carefully where you do not copy the _vti folders, still
creates problems since FP is not aware of any changes that have been
to the web content.
Click to expand...

Fact or hypothesis?
It is not my experience at all and not in the case of the other webmasters
I've known who've had to use FTP using Front Page.
3. If you have a need to use FTP for the situations that you
indicated or similar, like images being called by a database driven
application, files that are for downloading, then the best and safest
option is to use subwebs.
Click to expand...

That is a separate debate but for the record, I'll put my neck on the line
and say that most hosts don't allow the creation of subwebs, so therefore
FTPing may be the preferred solution.

Also keep in mind that many people visit this newsgroup and never ask
questions, but read and follow the advice posted, which may not
always be related to their actual situation or issues, so I will
continue to post my response to no use FTP with a FP enabled web site
unless enough info is provided to truly understand the specific
issues.
Click to expand...

Of course, it is a free world, no one is asking you to change the way you
give advice and I'm sure for many that advice is fine.
However, I think you need to reflect that the membership of this newsgroup
have a variety of skills and a sweeping generalisation can be
unintentionally unhelpful rather than helpful.
 
--

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, Forums, WebCircle,
MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================


Brett... said:
That has been my experience


Fact or hypothesis?
It is not my experience at all and not in the case of the other webmasters
I've known who've had to use FTP using Front Page.
Click to expand...

Fact! You would have to open the live site in FP and run Tools | Recalculate
Hyperlinks to update the hidden index files, and this doesn't always work.

That is a separate debate but for the record, I'll put my neck on the line
and say that most hosts don't allow the creation of subwebs, so therefore
FTPing may be the preferred solution.
Click to expand...

Many host also don't allow FTP access when the FP extensions are installed
on an account.
Of course, it is a free world, no one is asking you to change the way you
give advice and I'm sure for many that advice is fine.
However, I think you need to reflect that the membership of this newsgroup
have a variety of skills and a sweeping generalisation can be
unintentionally unhelpful rather than helpful.
Click to expand...

When post indicate a specific issue that would be best solved by using FTP,
I will and do recommend that.
 
Thomas said:
Fact! You would have to open the live site in FP and run Tools |
Recalculate Hyperlinks to update the hidden index files, and this
doesn't always work.
Click to expand...

As I said, that is not my experience when the _vti folders are left alone.

--
Brett

A friend of mine once sent me a post card with a picture of the entire
planet Earth taken from space. On the back it said, "Wish you were
here."
 
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